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From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.

Date: 09 May 1999 21:26:10 -0500


Now Joydeep, If it was really 23 coaches, it can't really be an ordinary
WAM4, at best a WAM4P or a WAM4R.

WAP 4Ps have been specially regeared for fast passenger trains and then
they
are as good as WAPs(1).

Harsh

-----Original Message-----
From: Joydeep Dutta <joydeepdutta@hotmail.email
To: hvc@vsnl.email <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.


>I have travelled by Tamil nadu Express with 23 coaches in 1994 hauled
by a
>WAM4 and it hauled it without a whimper at a booked speed of 95km/h.
Arrival
>at NDLS was on time. Now the usual loco on TN Express is JHS WAP4.
>Joydeep
>
>>From: "Harsh Vardhan" <champa@del3.email
>>Reply-To: "Harsh Vardhan" <hvc@vsnl.email
>>To: "Apurva Bahadur" <iti@vsnl.email
>>CC: <irfca@cs.email
>>Subject: 24 COACH TRAINS.
>>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:47:18 +0530
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> I felt that the twin WDM2 powered 24 coach Karnata Express also
made a
>> >> beautiful sight on a bend/over a bridge.
>>
>>
>> >Does that mean that the KK runs from NDLS to Manmad also on diesel
power
>>?
>>If
>> >can you guess where the twin Itarsi powers are attached to this
train
if
>>this
>> >train is electrically hauled from NDLS. .
>> >
>>
>>I have not travelled in this train personally for a long time but saw
it
>>from my Nizammudin-Goa Exp. when it was being hauled by the light blue
>>Guntakal locos. My train stopped at some station between
>>Belapur-Daund(possibly Rahuri) and I thought it would pass the
Karnataka
>>Exp. But the K Exp. also arrived and waited on the third line. For
some
>>unknown reason they had decided to hold two superfasts for letting the
>>nondescript Gyanganga Exp. go past us which was running many hours
late.
It
>>is almost certain that K Exp. changes powers at Itarsi (and not
Manmad)
>>where a 15 min stop has been provided.
>>
>>
>>Also can a single WAM 4 handle a 24
>> >coach load ? What is the weight of this rake - 24 coaches = 1200 T ?
>> >Maybe Sridhar (who has travelled on this train from SBC to MMR) can
tell
>>us
>>with
>> >the WDM 2s were indeed changed at MMR
>>
>>I don't think WAM4 is that capable. It must be a Jhansi WAP3/4 between
>>Delhi-Itarsi. Will try to find out and let you know.
>>
>>Harsh
>>
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>
>

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.

Date: 09 May 1999 21:26:10 -0500


Now Joydeep, If it was really 23 coaches, it can't really be an ordinary
WAM4, at best a WAM4P or a WAM4R.

WAP 4Ps have been specially regeared for fast passenger trains and then
they
are as good as WAPs(1).

Harsh

-----Original Message-----
From: Joydeep Dutta <joydeepdutta@hotmail.email
To: hvc@vsnl.email <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.


>I have travelled by Tamil nadu Express with 23 coaches in 1994 hauled
by a
>WAM4 and it hauled it without a whimper at a booked speed of 95km/h.
Arrival
>at NDLS was on time. Now the usual loco on TN Express is JHS WAP4.
>Joydeep
>
>>From: "Harsh Vardhan" <champa@del3.email
>>Reply-To: "Harsh Vardhan" <hvc@vsnl.email
>>To: "Apurva Bahadur" <iti@vsnl.email
>>CC: <irfca@cs.email
>>Subject: 24 COACH TRAINS.
>>Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 17:47:18 +0530
>>
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> I felt that the twin WDM2 powered 24 coach Karnata Express also
made a
>> >> beautiful sight on a bend/over a bridge.
>>
>>
>> >Does that mean that the KK runs from NDLS to Manmad also on diesel
power
>>?
>>If
>> >can you guess where the twin Itarsi powers are attached to this
train
if
>>this
>> >train is electrically hauled from NDLS. .
>> >
>>
>>I have not travelled in this train personally for a long time but saw
it
>>from my Nizammudin-Goa Exp. when it was being hauled by the light blue
>>Guntakal locos. My train stopped at some station between
>>Belapur-Daund(possibly Rahuri) and I thought it would pass the
Karnataka
>>Exp. But the K Exp. also arrived and waited on the third line. For
some
>>unknown reason they had decided to hold two superfasts for letting the
>>nondescript Gyanganga Exp. go past us which was running many hours
late.
It
>>is almost certain that K Exp. changes powers at Itarsi (and not
Manmad)
>>where a 15 min stop has been provided.
>>
>>
>>Also can a single WAM 4 handle a 24
>> >coach load ? What is the weight of this rake - 24 coaches = 1200 T ?
>> >Maybe Sridhar (who has travelled on this train from SBC to MMR) can
tell
>>us
>>with
>> >the WDM 2s were indeed changed at MMR
>>
>>I don't think WAM4 is that capable. It must be a Jhansi WAP3/4 between
>>Delhi-Itarsi. Will try to find out and let you know.
>>
>>Harsh
>>
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>
>

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: WDS Model ?

Date: 09 May 1999 22:28:56 -0500


<A HREF="http://www.link-web.de/maerklin.htm">http://www.link-web.de/maerklin.htm</A>

Would-be IR modelers out there: think
this one can be turned into a WDS2 model
with a few alterations ?

-Jayant S-

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: travel writing

Date: 09 May 1999 23:04:30 -0500


Thanks John,
I read in some records dated '76 that diesels
were
largely being used then on the KVR. But then it could certainly be that
steam survived there till the early eighties being mainly used for
shunting
and odd jobs including providing cover for diesel breakdown. This makes
it
perfectly possible for Young to have travelled behind steam in '77.
Thanks
for putting the record straight. Too bad that we both missed it.

Harsh

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lacey <jlacey@zeta.email
To: Harsh Vardhan <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: travel writing


>-Harsh Vardhan wrote:
>>
>> -
>> > The article, called Journey on a Perfect little Train
>> >describes a November 1977 journey from Delhi to Palumpur including a
>> >steam cab ride on the Kangra Valley line.
>>
>> How very strange. Are you sure it was '77 and did steam survive on
KVR
till
>> then ?
>>
>> Harsh
>
>Most of the travel pieces in Gavin Young's book were written for the
>Observer, and each has a date, presumably that of original publication.
>This one is given as 23 November 1977, and underneath the title is the
>descriptive line,
>" When I had the opportunity to take a trip by steam engine into the
>Himalayan foothills, I boarded at the first opportunity".
>Of course,the journey described could have taken place some time before
>1977, and only a small section of the article is set on the footplate.
>I spent a few hours in Pathankot in late 1980 on my first visit to
India
>and there was at least one ZE busily shunting. Unfortunately, I did not
>pay much attention to it as I was captivated by my first sight of HPS
>locos-and then distracted by the necessity to change money.
>
>John
>
>
>

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: travel writing

Date: 09 May 1999 23:04:30 -0500


Thanks John,
I read in some records dated '76 that diesels
were
largely being used then on the KVR. But then it could certainly be that
steam survived there till the early eighties being mainly used for
shunting
and odd jobs including providing cover for diesel breakdown. This makes
it
perfectly possible for Young to have travelled behind steam in '77.
Thanks
for putting the record straight. Too bad that we both missed it.

Harsh

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lacey <jlacey@zeta.email
To: Harsh Vardhan <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: travel writing


>-Harsh Vardhan wrote:
>>
>> -
>> > The article, called Journey on a Perfect little Train
>> >describes a November 1977 journey from Delhi to Palumpur including a
>> >steam cab ride on the Kangra Valley line.
>>
>> How very strange. Are you sure it was '77 and did steam survive on
KVR
till
>> then ?
>>
>> Harsh
>
>Most of the travel pieces in Gavin Young's book were written for the
>Observer, and each has a date, presumably that of original publication.
>This one is given as 23 November 1977, and underneath the title is the
>descriptive line,
>" When I had the opportunity to take a trip by steam engine into the
>Himalayan foothills, I boarded at the first opportunity".
>Of course,the journey described could have taken place some time before
>1977, and only a small section of the article is set on the footplate.
>I spent a few hours in Pathankot in late 1980 on my first visit to
India
>and there was at least one ZE busily shunting. Unfortunately, I did not
>pay much attention to it as I was captivated by my first sight of HPS
>locos-and then distracted by the necessity to change money.
>
>John
>
>
>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: WDS Model ?

Date: 09 May 1999 23:43:37 -0500


Jayant S wrote:
>
> <A HREF="http://www.link-web.de/maerklin.htm">http://www.link-web.de/maerklin.htm</A>
>
> Would-be IR modelers out there: think
> this one can be turned into a WDS2 model
> with a few alterations ?
>
> -Jayant S-

Sorry - which picture? You pointed us at the home page

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Chinese made US engine

Date: 09 May 1999 23:53:04 -0500


<A HREF="http://utica.railfan.net/142.htm">http://utica.railfan.net/142.htm</A>

142 made in 1989, as TangShan China

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: WDS Model ?

Date: 09 May 1999 23:56:55 -0500


Anne Ogborn wrote:
> > Would-be IR modelers out there: think
> > this one can be turned into a WDS2 model
> > with a few alterations ?
> Sorry - which picture? You pointed us at the home page

Ooops...so sorry: that's what happens when
you "send link" from a frames site....

Try this:
<A HREF="http://www.link-web.de/siggi/ebpics1/pic00410.htm">http://www.link-web.de/siggi/ebpics1/pic00410.htm</A>

--
JS
--

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Darjeeling tea engine

Date: 09 May 1999 23:58:21 -0500


Laporte County Historical Steam Society, in Hesston
IN

supposedly has a "Darjeeling tea engine"



Anyone know anything about this?

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: WP

Date: 10 May 1999 00:37:54 -0500



Hi gang,

Did any of you know that the WP's were lovingly known as The Pregnant
Ladies with Tender Behinds by the Bulsar (Valsad) shed crew.

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 10 May 1999 01:00:14 -0500


Thank you Dr. Ken for your valuable comments,

Personally I feel that if we restrict ourselves to just the oddities or
IR
compared to all the railways on earth in past & present, the list will
become miniscule. It would perhaps be somewhat equivalent to the No. of
times IR gets mentioned in the Guiness Book.

It would therefore be better if we restrict to eye-catchers within the
IR
and they may not be eye catchers for everyone necessarily.

For example a WP locomotive is perhaps one of the most unique
representation
of IR even though semi streamlined bullet nosed locomotive haxe existed
elsewhere and some will even argue that the WP is an American
locomotive!
On similar lines a Garratt having been used on Kalka Simla railway and
DHR
in the past is a deviation from the standard practice even if it is
prevalent all over the world. To me it is a real oddity that the former
Garratt landed up in NWR of what is now in Pakistan and was regauged to
2'0". There might be other examples of it elsewhere in the world but not
on
IR and I don't know these.

This is of course my personal opinion and and I would suggest that big
or
small, let us keep them coming. Iam sure we have here enthusiasts of
every
league someone somewhere might be interested in a particular
information.
We'll leave the editing to whosoever finally puts it on the website(if
at
all).

Harsh


-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <kjw_meh@powerup.email
To: shankie@emirates.email <shankie@emirates.email
Cc: IRFCA - mailing list <irfca@cs.email
Date: Saturday, May 08, 1999 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: Oddities


>Hi everyone, especially Shankar and Harsh,
> I think we do need to distinguish between genuine oddities and
things
>that are simply survivals of older practices, or common elsewhere in
the
>world.
> Wooden brake blocks, for example, were common on all railways in
the
>early days. The round hatch on the end of the O&R van at the NRM in
Delhi
>seems, from drawings in my possession, to have been a common fitting on
>Indian State Railways vans in the 1880s. I suspect it was for the
purpose
of
>sampling grains, etc. It was probably suppressed due to the ease of
>pilfering!
> Rack lines are common in mountain areas. What makes the Nilgiri
line
>so special is that it is unique in India and has such superb scenery.
>Fireless locos are also common; they are still used where sparks (even
from
>diesels) might cause fires: industrial plants using solvents, and oil
>refineries, are typical.
> Steam rail motors using an integrated engine enjoyed a brief
>popularity in Britain around 1905, and dozens were built. To my
knowledge
>four Indian railways (EIR, NWR, GIP, M&SM) built broad-gauge ones,
while
>Gwalior had a magnificant two-foot gauge example. Home-made diesel or
petrol
>railcars were very common on the various component railways of the
>Saurashtra system (Morvi, Junagarh, etc) from the late 1920s through to
the
>late 1940s; in addition some Bengal narrow-gauge lines had various
ones.
The
>Drewry company (Motor Rail) supplied a trickle of such cars to various
>Indian lines during the 1920s-1940s; the KSR motors are only the
best-known.
> The MAWD (metre gauge) 2-8-2s from USA and Canada were supplied
to
>numerous MG and 3ft 6in gauge systems during WWII, and the majority
were
>shipped with the headlamp in the middle of the smokebox door, the
>configuration Harsh likes. Some went to Queensland, many to Burma and
>Thailand, and quite a few other locations. The SG/BG "Middle East" and
S160
>designs (IR AWD/CWD and AWC) were even more widely distributed. The MG
>engines in Thailand, incidentally, were called "Macarthurs".
> Multi-level vans for animals are not at all uncommon. Australia
has
>double-deck sheep trucks, and so did the Great North of SAcotland
Railway.
>However, I dicovered a real oddity in the (Indian) SR diagram books a
couple
>of years ago: a six-level MG DUCK van, peppered with breathing holes,
though
>it was otherwise a standard MG van!
> Multi-deck car carriers are also quite common. In the USA, a
very
>large proportion of the new car traffic has been captured since the
>introduction of three-deck 85ft transporters which are entirely
protected
by
>mesh, thus poreventing damge in transit from vandalism or stray stones,
etc.
> On the other hand, I was delighted to get tea in a clay cup on
a
>recent trip from Ahmedabad to Delhi; a joy I'd missed in recent years.
> Let's keep the oddities coming, and maybe sort them a bit
as
we
>go?
> Cheers
> Ken Walker
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Shankar <shankie@emirates.email
>To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
>Date: Thursday, 6 May 1999 4:36
>Subject: Oddities
>
>
>>Hello Apurva,Dr.Walker and other friends,
>>To answer Apurva's question, yes, there do exist electric engines in
>>Europe (notable France) which can run on four different voltages:1500V
>>dc, 3000V dc, 15,000V ac and 25.000V ac.These used to power the Trans
>>Europe Expresses (TEE) and were conceived to run through different
>>countries using different voltages. These engines were called
>>"quadricurrent" locomotives.As such, the ac/dc WCAMs are not oddities
>>per se, but are unusual on the IR.
>>Same goes for the rack and pinion Nilgiri trains, fireless
>>locomotive,and the double decker cars. The first dd car was introduced
>>on the erstwhile East Indian Railway in 1862. Wooden bodied and
>>4-wheeler, a model is preserved at the NRM in Delhi.
>>To Dr. K.J.Walker, yes indeed, I thought a series on oddities would be
>>fun.
>>But surprisingly, the response has only been very lukewarm.
>>
>>Here are a few more oddities I could think of:
>>
>>A.Two are in the NRM itself: One, the double decker wooden bodied
sheep
>>van with overhead water tank and accommodation for one attendant, and
>>two, the box car from the erstwhile Oudh and Rohilkhund Railway, with
>>unusual circular doors (locked from the INSIDE!).
>>Also the railmotor (passenger car with built-in steam locomotive)
which
>>once worked on the East Indian Railway. The engine portion was later
>>removed and is now in the NRM as 'Phoenix'.
>>
>>B:The Tata lorries fitted with train wheels and used as self propelled
>>sundry items carriers on the Madras-Arakonam line (during
>>electrification) and later on teh Konkan Railway. I think Apurva has
>>posted a pic of one such contraption in his website.
>>
>>C: SOme ng cars on the WR, notably in the Dabhoi area have special dog
>>boxes with doggie-level lookout windows, usually closed with
exquisitely
>>shaped grillework.A pic of one of these lookouts is featured in the
book
>>'India-No Problem Sahib".
>>
>>D. SOme of the wartime MAWD engines on the SR had their headlight
>>fitted to the middle of the smokebox door, (somewhat like the WP, but
>>without
>>the streamlining. This greatly enhanced their typical Yankee
appearance.
>>
>>E: The crude hand-built ng diesel railcars on the Bangarapet-Yelahanka
>>line near Bangalore. (now defunct after the line was regauged to bg. I
>>don't think you will see such crude workmanship anywhere else in the
>>world!
>>
>>f: The hand pulled fire trolleys placed on the platforms of several
>>stations on the GIP Rly (now CR): notable Lonavle, Khandala,
>>Yadgir.There had to be pulled manually on the platform by two men.A
>>rudimentary hand-pump was provided to pump water.Withdrawn as recently
>>as 1992, two are now in the NRM in delhi.
>>
>>Other non-rolling stock oddities on the IR are:
>>
>>1. Serving chai in earthern cups all over the ER and lunch on banana
>>leaves on the SCR and SR.
>>2.Solar semaphore signal on the SR.
>>3. Sandhurst Road station on the Bombay (oops:Mumbai) suburban section
>>is the only one in the country to be situated on two levels:regular,
and
>>upper level.I think the upper level station must be the only station
in
>>India to be built completely on top of a bridge.
>>4. The approach to the upper level station is by a steep incline (all
>>harbor line trains take this). This is supposed to be the steepest
>>UN-AIDED climb for bg on the entire IR network.
>>5.THe drive through platforms of Madras Egmore station, where one
could
>>(and still can, for a fee) drive right upto the train car.Such a
>>facility also existed on a very limited scale at Howrah station,
though
>>I do not know if it is still used.
>>6.The wooden foot overbridge at Madras Egmore must also be one of a
>>kind.
>>7.Shunting by elephant in certain areas, I think on the NF or ER.
>>8. The longest station platform in India is Kharagpur at 2733 ft.This
>>may not be an odditty in itself as worldwide, I think one can see even
>>longer platforms.
>>But try this. The longest station name on the IR network (certainly an
>>oddity) is VENKATANARASIMHARAJUVARIPETA: The station immediately after
>>Renigunta (whenproceeding towards Bombay) on the Madras-Bombay
>>line.However, its only a flag station, and is not listed.
>>THe shortest name must be IB, on the SER.
>>Will post if I can think of anything else.
>>Cheers.(with due apologies to Dr.Walker!)
>>Shankar
>>
>
>

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: WP

Date: 10 May 1999 02:24:52 -0500



>Did any of you know that the WP's were lovingly known as The Pregnant
>Ladies with Tender Behinds by the Bulsar (Valsad) shed crew.
>


You mean working tender first. Well, they did look kinda funny that way
as
did most of the BG steamers. But if that is a reference to the chimney
first
figure, I'd say that would be stretching the imaginations a bit too far.
They should see th AWEs, XEs, CWDs and compare.

Harsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Two more tracks between Borivali and Virar

Date: 10 May 1999 03:18:51 -0500


Thanks to Prakash for his inputs.

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.

Date: 10 May 1999 04:06:50 -0500


WAM 4P IS ALSO USED ON MAJOR CR TRAINS BOUND FOR NAGPUR, LUCKNOW, AND
HOWRAH. ONE EXAMPLE IS GITANJALI EXPRESS. ALSO USED ON PUSHPAK AND
VIDHARBH EXPRESS.

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: John Lacey <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 10 May 1999 05:52:55 -0500


Not quite an oddity, but something about IR which is admirable, if not
unique: 2'6'' gauge Sleeping Cars!
Do they still run between Jabalpur and Gondia, Jabalpur and Nagpur and
Latur and Kurduvadi?
-John

From: Don Mills <>

Subject: Longest train ever ran in India

Date: 10 May 1999 06:33:07 -0500


What is the longest train--(passenger, excursion) ran in India?
(number of
Coaches, diners etc). In the US we ran a 31 car train excursion on the
New
River Train.

From: Dipl.-Ing. Nikolaus Sbarounis <>

Subject: Re: Darjeeling tea engine

Date: 10 May 1999 07:03:04 -0500


On Sun, 09 May 1999 23:58:21 -0700, Anne Ogborn wrote:

> Laporte County Historical Steam Society, in Hesston
> IN
>
> supposedly has a "Darjeeling tea engine"
>
>
>
> Anyone know anything about this?

Railroads of Indiana website reports:
(<A HREF="http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/specials/preservation.html)">http://www.indiana.edu/~iupress/specials/preservation.html)</A>
"Hesston Steam Museum

Established as a traction engine museum in 1957, the museum added
its
first steam locomotive in 1964. Several rare narrow-gauge engines are
restored or operated, including 2' gauge locomotives from Germany,
Czechoslovakia, and the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway in India, plus a 3'
gauge Shay geared locomotive from Oregon. The museum operates weekends
over
a 2 1/4-mile loop of track, and features an annual four-day Labor Day
weekend steam show."

Official website:
<A HREF="http://www.michigancity.com/Hesston/Hesston.html">http://www.michigancity.com/Hesston/Hesston.html</A>

There is a video of them at this site:
<A HREF="http://foxcity.com/railroad/videos.htm">http://foxcity.com/railroad/videos.htm</A>

I hope this helps.


________________________________________________
Visit my rail website:
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209</A>




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at <A HREF="http://mail.excite.com/">http://mail.excite.com/</A>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Hijras on trains (was Re: Ladies special EMU)

Date: 10 May 1999 09:04:22 -0500


Hi Harsh -
Thanks for responding and not just getting angry.

Harsh Vardhan wrote:
>
> Dear Anne,
> When we passed out of college in '90, most of my
mates
> moved out in search of jobs or for higher education while I got to
stay back
> at Delhi as I had wanted. Including others a couple of my best
> friends(females) were amongst those who moved to Bombay. In the
subsequent
> year I chanced to visit Bombay and caught up with all the old pals and
> talked in great details about about what was for many of them the
first year
> of staying away from home. Life in Bombay as you know is a far cry
from
> Delhi. I vividly recall that when we talked of various aspects of EMU
travel
> one girl remarked that Eunuchs do travel in the ladies coaches and
although
> they never made as much as a whimper, it scared her initially. I don't
blame
> her at all because we had together run into a nasty bunch in a Delhi
Park
> who thought that we were there for kootchie-coeing and owed them
money as
> some kind of blessings reward/ protection money. I don't know how much
you
> are aware
> of this aspect of eunuch life in India but that was the first rude
shock for
> me. They said so many nasty things that it almost came to fisticuffs.
And
> all
> this while the poor girl was in tears because there was nothing of the
> romantic sorts between us and we had just come to that park because it
> crossed our ways. She tells me that this incident still continues to
haunt
> her at times though I have learned to view it pragmatically over the
years.
>

You know, some years ago I was in a small shop and the Indian shopkeeper
tryed to have
his way with me. After that I was, I'll confess, scared of Indian men.
Then I got
interested in the hijra community and started, naturally, meeting a lot
more Indian
men in the course of my researches, learning Hindi, etc. So eventually I
quit
seeing "Indian man" and started seeing "my Hindi teacher", "the editor
of the Indo-
American magazine", "the man who runs the gas station and chatters with
me in Hindi".
And then I forgot all about being afraid of Indian men.
But I'm still afraid of that shopkeeper.

Yes, I'll freely admit that the park business, like many of the things
we do
as traditional ways of making money, is a crude business. But you have
to ask
yourself, why is it this interaction came about? Well, you people have
divided
the whole world into two groups based on biology, and agreed to make
these
relationships between the groups, and you make that the most important
and
central thing in the world -
and then when some people come along who don't fit into the groups,
well...
they just don't get to play.
It's as if a powerful country invaded a weak neighbor. And when asked to
justify
their actions, they said, "well, their soldiers made war on us. Where?
Oh, just
outside their capitol".

I'm very aware of what goes on in parks. I've never hassled lovers in
parks,
but that only by coincidence. It isn't a great job, and I've always
lived in houses that
had a dance area.

Now, the question comes, have I ever been hassled by men or women in a
park? Oh, yes,
many, many times. Not being totally crazy, we too knock off in the early
afternoon heat
and rest. And, being eunuchs and not welcome in stores, we usually knock
off under a shady
tree. And we've had men come along and make offensive sexual comments to
us more times than
I can count. The rule is that we're not supposed to fight, but I can
think of a couple times
men came up and pestered us and either they started a fight, or they
were just so nasty
that some hijra lost her temper.
One day two men just came and started slapping one of the young chelas.
It was odd - no
conversation, they just came up and started slapping her. In this case
we were just walking
back across a park to get home.
I remember my guru beating a man with a shoe after he had stood in front
of us and
taken his member out and done nasty things with it. And you know that
man went to the
nearest dhaba and told everyone that the hijras had beaten and robbed
him, oh nasty hijras.

> I also recall an incident when as a child of about 10, I was
travelling with
> my cousin to Dehradun and in the same coach there was a lot of hue and
cry
> by ladies in a ladies coupe where two eunuchs had booked. The ladies
did not
> relent even when the guard offered that the keep the coupe door open
and
> finally he had to give the two alternate berths. I didn't much what
was
> happening back then but now I feel what was funny. And as a curious
railway
> freak that Iam, I would like to know what the railway rule book has
got to
> say about this(if anything).
>

Why am I reminded at this moment that MK Gandhi started his public work
when a white man
in S. Africa insisted Gandhi Ji be removed from the compartment he was
in?

> In the past few years the money collection practice has become very
common
> in all the north train at least. In am still undecided about how to
tackle
> this and mostly resort to - pay when with a female and an absolute
no-no
> when travelling alone and look the other way. There is certainly no
> intention on my part to pass judgements over what I feel is a larger
social
> problem and needs to be tackled at a larger forum. To pay or not to
pay is
> not the only question.
>

No, it's not the root question. If people still respected the badhaie,
if the government
would give back our land, then there would be no reason for us to beg in
trains.
You know that there is no custom to ask a eunuch for a ticket? This is
because
this fine was given the railways after an elderly eunuch mai was beaten
by a gaurd.


> And finally you got it all wrong when you say, I implied that your
> travelling in the ladies coupe is a security hazard. Of course men
> travelling in ladies coaches is considered a security hazard(and that
is the
> reason why these were devised in the first place) but that does not go
to
> say that all men are mobbers, thieves and rapists. I asked a similar
> question about kid(or even grown up) vendors also. It is a well known
fact
> that majority of the ragpicker kids are addicts and would do anthing
to get
> a joint. If you have been out of touch, there have been a couple of
> incidents in the past few months when women resisting mobbings have
been
> chucked out of a moving train. Certain women can also be a security
hazard
> and I know that but is there a way of finding that out.

Yes - and vendors do come in, as well as the occasional teenager seeking
a seat.
But, to return to Gandhi, the situation there was more complex.
The vast majority of Indians in S. Africa were there as contract
laborers,
working for miserable wages. There must have been some amount of the
crime poverty always breeds. I know there was a great deal of the filth
-
Gandhi Ji wrote of it.
So that night this white man came into the compartment and saw, not MK
Gandhi,
esquire, but a colored man. And instead of complaining that there was a
dirty,
suspicious looking laborer in the compartment, he complained that there
was
an Indian.
And the women who refused to have eunuchs in their compartment didn't
see
these hijras as individuals, they only saw hijras. Were these hijras
misbehaving
some how? I've travelled with many, many hijras, and never seen any
misbehave.
I have seen hijras beg alms on trains (I confess, only a couple times),
and they
were reasonably well behaved, given that they were begging.

Yes, this is a complex issue, but I know that the fixes always end up
being applied
to the hijras, not to the men and women.

> Come on, I just asked a question and never meant to point any fingers.



> Nevertheless I do sincerely apologise if I have inadvertently hurt
your or
> anyone
> else's feelings in any way. That was certainly not my intention. Trust
that
> you will try to understand my viewpoint as well.
> Regards,
>
> Harsh
>
> P.S. I have intentionally not marked a copy of this mail to the list
but
> certainly have no problems in doing so should you agree.

I am going to post this to the IRFC list, but I think we should then
take it offline,
just to respect the spirit of keeping IRFC strictly about railways.

Annie

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.

Date: 10 May 1999 09:04:25 -0500


Must be a WAM4P then, but the Poorva Express I took from New Delhi to
Howrah
was hauled by one, and the train had additional coaches, because two
WDM2s
were used between Allahabad and Mughal Sarai. A WAP1 took over at Mughal
Sarai.

Also, a WAM4 (or perhaps WAM4P) is regularly used to haul the Black
Diamond
Express, which is mainly a commuter express, and is usually pretty long.


-----Original Message-----
From: poras p.saklatwalla [mailto:pps@godrej.email
Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 4:07 AM
To: Harsh Vardhan
Cc: Krishnan Anand; Joydeep Dutta; irfca@cs.email
Subject: Re: 24 COACH TRAINS.


WAM 4P IS ALSO USED ON MAJOR CR TRAINS BOUND FOR NAGPUR, LUCKNOW, AND
HOWRAH. ONE EXAMPLE IS GITANJALI EXPRESS. ALSO USED ON PUSHPAK AND
VIDHARBH EXPRESS.

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 10 May 1999 09:05:58 -0500


Yes, they do run still on the Jabalpur-Gondia section but even that is
likely to be converted to BG soon. What a pity!

Nagpur-Gondia is already BG. Barsi light Rly. conversion work was to get
commenced. Iam not aware of the current scenario.

Sleeping cars on 2'6" gauge or even 2' gauge might not be such a rarity
but
there is a worldwide rarity on IR on the Satpura Express operating on
Jabalpur-Gondia section. The only AC chair cars on Narrow Gauge.
Or am I hopelessly wrong once again? Dr. Walker?

Harsh

-----Original Message-----
From: John Lacey <jlacey@zeta.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: Oddities


>Not quite an oddity, but something about IR which is admirable, if not
>unique: 2'6'' gauge Sleeping Cars!
>Do they still run between Jabalpur and Gondia, Jabalpur and Nagpur and
>Latur and Kurduvadi?
>-John
>
>

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