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From: Dipl.-Ing. Nikolaus Sbarounis <>

Subject: Rescuing the Darjeeling line

Date: 12 Feb 1999 09:07:08 -0500


Hello, all
I recently sent an e-mail to the steam_tech newsgroup, regarding the
traction problem of the DHR This group consists of serious steam railway
professionals and preservationists, mostly mech. engineers, who are keen
on
promoting steam modernization, research and development on railways
where
steam traction presents an advantage. Here are the main points:

> Despite some encouraging infos on Hugh Odom's news page, this line
won't
> survive as an exclusively popcorn-selling, Sunday tourist railroad
type.
For
> those of you less familiar with the location, have a look at this fine
> Darjeeling-Himalaya website!
>
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/7378/">http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/7378/</A>
>
> I see here a potential application field, which largely meets the
criteria
I
> specified in my report:
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209/STEAM_LOCOMOTION.htm">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209/STEAM_LOCOMOTION.htm</A>
> which most of you have read. Well,
> 1) it is still a 100% steam-operated railway, which makes things
easier
> (fully familiar personnel, efficient and completely equipped
workshops,
> servicing facilities etc.). Combining this with a lower cost of
labour, we
may
> come up with a lower cost and a much-much shorter implementation time,
than
> on any preserved, volunteer-operated RR in a Western country.
> 2) it is situated in a country, where steam can (and did) compete
efficiently with
> other traction forms (despite the disastrous motive power policy on
the
mainline
> system, which is rather a result of politics and "public image" than a
> logical result of engineering and financial evaluation).
> 3) its World Heritage status and the enormous tourist potential of the
site
> makes it a candidate for the continued use of steam.
> 4) a participation on a steam R&D program, if "marketed" properly, may
draw
> international financial and scientific support (including the
involvement
> of our beloved steam masters, like Porta, Wardale etc).
> 5) since the results of an eventual success will be directly
applicable to
any
> similar railway of the same gauge, nothing prevents other 2-footers
all
over
> the world from joining in the program with any resources they can come
> up with.
> 6) in spite of its tourist potential, the primary scope of the railway
is
> still to remain an efficient common carrier, in order to deem any road
> improvements at its own cost unnecessary.
> 7) being a world-famous railway, a succesful new or rebuilt steamer on
it
> will benefit the reputation of modern steam as a whole.
> 8) Diesels have already been tested with disappointing results and
abandoned
> (read also
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/7378/loco.htm">http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Shores/7378/loco.htm</A> )
>
> Now, to the technical and organizational details of this affair:
> A. Technical
> -If any decent traffic is to be carried for eliminating the need of
road
> widening at the expense (read abandonment) of the railroad, nothing
less
> than an articulated loco can cope with it
> -As the currently operating B class 0-4-0ST behaves quite
satisfactorily
on
> the poor track geometry, I suggest using their frames and wheels for
the
> prototype loco. This takes us to a 0-4-0+0-4-0 arrangement with
various
> alternative forms, most notably Garratt and Meyer. A Garratt can
accommodate
> a larger boiler, but must be checked againist loading gauge
limitations
in
> view of its considerable offset when on a tight curve.
> -Some rough calculations will be necessary to determine whether
compounding
> would offer anything I have the feeling that it would reduce
badly-needed
> tractive effort uphill, while it's useless downhill. Since advanced
> compounds can be worked at simple-expansion mode when maximum traction
is
> needed, I think that no operator would drive at compound mode on a
ruling
> gradient of 5%. The level sections seem too short to make any
difference
in
> fuel savings achieved by compounding. If this is true, we may be
forced
into
> adoption of a Garratt solution, in order to accommodate a boiler
capable
of
> feeding a single-expansion 4-cylinder mechanism. A Garratt would also
spare
> the infrastructure, since its power units will be further apart than
on
any
> other articulated.
> -I got the impression that 100t trains
> (excluding engine) at 20 km/h on a 5% grade can be considered a
sufficient
> performance. On the level, I would be content with, say, 175 t at
30km/h.
> B. Organisation
> -We need as much information on this operation and its motive power as
possible
> -We need an engineer-in-charge of the Project. Is any of the steam
masters
> free at this time? I don't know if some duties can be shared among
several
> part-time engineers, or if this would cause confusion. On the other
hand,
> one of the masters, if available, may only supervise the scientific
part
of
> the Project from his home, while another Mech.Eng. would be employed
> full-time on site. One of the existing DHR engineers might be sent
abroad
> for, say, 4 months to work and familiarize himself with ongoing steam
> improvement programs, then work at home with the aid of an aknowledged
steam
> consultant.
> -The preliminary "paperwork" study can be done largely at home,
although
> initially site visits by the consultant will be required for
familiarisation
> with the area and the facilities, as well as for tests involving the
> existing equipment.
> -A selected team of the shops' workforce and qualified operations'
personnel
> should be assigned full- or part-time to the Project as required.
> -The Project's scope will be considered finished when the tender
documents
> with the new (or to-be-rebuilt) locos' specifications will be approved
by
> the supervising authority. After that, it will be the latter's
> responsibility to perform the job in-house or contract it out to a
third
> party.
> -Last, but not least, who will cover the costs of the research? I
think
our
> Indian friends can work on this; generally speaking, any of the
parties
> benefiting from the railway's rescue may participate, including the
local
> Tourist Board, Commerce Chamber, Railway Authority, other government
> entities etc. International support can be sought in the form of
cultural
> subsidies (e.g. from UNESCO) and sponsors struggling for publicity
(Not
the
> "Coca Cola RR" kind with the locos masquerading as giant Coke cans!).
Also
> foreign railway and industrial interests may contribute, for utilising
the
> research results, patents etc. for their own benefit.
> Our role, as a steam promotion group, is to assist our Indian friends
in
> saving their operation by means of public relations, aid on scientific
and
> management issues and, if anyone has thaaaaaat much time, on actual
field
> work.

So far, so good! I'd like to request the following data:
track profile and loading gauge sketches, trackwork details, track
devices
and facilities, engineering reports, data, drawings and articles on the
locos, cars etc. I may come up with some ideas on other improvements as
well!
Keep'em coming!


________________________________________________
Visit my rail website:
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209</A>




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at <A HREF="http://mail.excite.com/">http://mail.excite.com/</A>

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 12 Feb 1999 20:41:33 -0500



bg is huge, ng is too small and mg is beautiful

Yes Joydeep you said it MG is beautiful and well proportionate. Sadly
it's
dying in India.

Viraf
==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================

From: Mike Brooker <>

Subject: IR fan: intro to new subscriber

Date: 12 Feb 1999 21:21:16 -0500


I have just joined the Indian Railway Fan Club list.  Mera naam Mike Brooker hai.  I also go by a Sanskrit name, Keval.  Maim thora thora hindi bol sakta hum.  Hindi bahut sundar bhasha hai.
 
I'm 38 years old, still single (in India that matter would have been arranged for me long ago!), and am working as a database content developer with the Canadian Health Network (visit <<A HREF="http://www.canadian-health-network.ca>">http://www.canadian-health-network.ca></A> )
 
I'm one of those "White Anglo-Saxon Hindus", a westerner who has adopted the spiritual practices of Sanatan Vedic Dharma, doing yoga, studying the Gita, learning Sanskrit, etc.  I've been on this path since 1989.  I don't have one main guru, have had several teachers over the years, but do feel a strong devotion to Mata Amritanandamayi.  In December 1995/January 1996 I spent 6 weeks in India, visiting tirthas such as Haridwar, Rishikesh, Mathura, Vrindavan, Sarnath, Varanasi, etc.  I got around India with a 2AC IndrailPass.  One of my most spiritually fulfilling experiences in India didn't happen in any of the temples or ashrams that I visited, but aboard the 2ndAC sleepers of the Rajdhani Express.  Being gently rocked to sleep by the motion of the train felt so nurturing...as if the Divine Mother was rocking me to sleep.  I really did feel Her presence aboard the train!  Another fun experience was getting on the local train in Bombay, between Bombay Central and Church Gate stations, as casually as if I were riding the subway in my home town, Toronto, Canada!
 
I have always enjoyed travelling by train.  Have been on many trains in the Canada and the U.S., including Amtrak's Coast Starlight and City of New Orleans, and Via Rail's Canadian, but nothing could prepare me for the experience of India.  I look forward to sharing my Indian railway experiences and reading other people's postings about the world's largest railway system.  I do hope to visit India again sometime after the turn of the century.
 
Bharat Mata Ki Jai!!
 
Visit my Inner Realm:  <<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5646>">http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5646></A>
 
Mike (Keval)

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Rescuing the Darjeeling line

Date: 13 Feb 1999 01:46:58 -0500



Hello,
The concept of using an articulated loco on DHR isn't new. A Garratt(BP
5407
of 1910) has actually worked on this line in the earlier part of this
millenium. And it was designed on the lines that you are thinking.

Even the 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 frame(double of B class) could not achieve the
required adhesion which resulted in slipping of front bogie wheels. It
had
massive problems negotiating the curves and wheels would jump the rails
often. The long boiler also had problems in maintaining pressure. The
locomotive was soon abandoned and the articulated experiment was not
considered any successful to be further pursued.

Harsh



>> -If any decent traffic is to be carried for eliminating the need of
road
>> widening at the expense (read abandonment) of the railroad, nothing
less
>> than an articulated loco can cope with it
>> -As the currently operating B class 0-4-0ST behaves quite
satisfactorily
>on
>> the poor track geometry, I suggest using their frames and wheels for
the
>> prototype loco. This takes us to a 0-4-0+0-4-0 arrangement with
various
>> alternative forms, most notably Garratt and Meyer. A Garratt can
>accommodate
>> a larger boiler, but must be checked againist loading gauge
limitations
>in
>> view of its considerable offset when on a tight curve.
>> -Some rough calculations will be necessary to determine whether
>compounding
>> would offer anything I have the feeling that it would reduce
badly-needed
>> tractive effort uphill, while it's useless downhill. Since advanced
>> compounds can be worked at simple-expansion mode when maximum
traction is
>> needed, I think that no operator would drive at compound mode on a
ruling
>> gradient of 5%. The level sections seem too short to make any
difference
>in
>> fuel savings achieved by compounding. If this is true, we may be
forced
>into
>> adoption of a Garratt solution, in order to accommodate a boiler
capable
>of
>> feeding a single-expansion 4-cylinder mechanism. A Garratt would also
>spare
>> the infrastructure, since its power units will be further apart than
on
>any
>> other articulated.
>> -I got the impression that 100t trains
>> (excluding engine) at 20 km/h on a 5% grade can be considered a
>sufficient
>> performance. On the level, I would be content with, say, 175 t at
30km/h.
>> B. Organisation
>> -We need as much information on this operation and its motive power
as
>possible
>> -We need an engineer-in-charge of the Project. Is any of the steam
>masters
>> free at this time? I don't know if some duties can be shared among
>several
>> part-time engineers, or if this would cause confusion. On the other
hand,
>> one of the masters, if available, may only supervise the scientific
part
>of
>> the Project from his home, while another Mech.Eng. would be employed
>> full-time on site. One of the existing DHR engineers might be sent
abroad
>> for, say, 4 months to work and familiarize himself with ongoing steam
>> improvement programs, then work at home with the aid of an
aknowledged
>steam
>> consultant.

From: Dr. S. Parthasarathy <>

Subject: New Member

Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:50:33 -0500


1999-02-13

Greetings. I am new to IFRA. I send you all my best greetings, and
express my happiness to have joined such a meaningful club.

I wonder if any member of this mailing list is interested/concerned
about SAFETY in Indian Railways. There was an announcement and
invitation for suggestions from the Indian railways some six months ago.
Is anybody aware of the actions taken and progress in this matter ? I
had sent a fairly detailed report to the Indian railways in response to
the above advertisement. Copies of this report (MS WORD document) can be
sent (by e mail) to anyone who sends me a request.

I would be very happy to exchange ideas and suggestions from members of
this list.

Look forward to an exciting company in this fsacinating train called
IRFCA.....

....partha

--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Dr. S. Parthasarathy Phone: + 49 -531-3913328
I F R A FAX: + 49 -531-3915197
Tech. Univ. Braunschweig
Langer Kamp 8
38106 Braunschweig - GERMANY

e mail : partha@ifra.email
<A HREF="http://www.ifra.ing.tu-bs.de/~m05/partha/partha.en.html">http://www.ifra.ing.tu-bs.de/~m05/partha/partha.en.html</A>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>

Subject: Re: Backrests in a WDM 2 !!

Date: 13 Feb 1999 09:38:03 -0500


> toughest job in railway services and with little credit. Goods trains
crews
> have a miserable life and I know instances where drivers work for 48
hours
> or more at a stretch. There were instances when such overworked goods
> drivers were assigned with superfasts(latest was the Karnataka Express
crash
> at Faridabad last year) due to shortage of drivers and they rammed
them

> Harsh

I recently visited Sambalpur Division, and I was talking to
some senior traffic staff there. I was told that drivers are not
supposed to work more than 10 hours at a stretch (including delays,
otherwise duty is normally upto 6 hours). They told me that the late
running trains are particularly monitored for this purpose, and
a crew change may take place at an unscheduled place if the total
time till the scheduled place of crew change may exceed 10 hours.

-dheeraj
--------------
Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413
(Fax)
Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
Home Page: <A HREF="http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj">http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj</A>

From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 13 Feb 1999 16:18:48 -0500


Hi everyone,
This discussion about the DHR is getting a little off beam, I think,
mainly beacuse people don't seem to be well-informed about current
developments.
Just to recap what's happened in the last couple of years: firstly,
Railway Board decided some time ago to retain the line. Second, they
called
for tenders for new, modern steam locomotives like the 'B' class, but
the
responses were "ten times too expensive" and lower-key approaches are
now
being investigated. It is likely that diesel power will be used for
regular
services, though a suitable design is currently not available. Thirdly,
the
line was nominated late last year for World Heritage status. which would
mean it could not ever be closed. That nomination is due to be
considered by
UNESCO next month. Fourth, a modern loco similar in size to the 'B'
class,
but considerably more powerful, is due to be tried on the DHR next year.
This is "Linda", from the Ffestiniog railway in Wales.
As several of you have correctly emphasised, the DHR has an
important
local service role to play. However, it also has considerable tourist
potential. Most of this is domestic tourism, not foreign -- foreign
tourist
traffic is reportedly only about 7% of the line's total -- and this is a
massive market, with tens of millions of tourist journeys India-wide
yearly.
The choice of traction clearly has an impact on that market, as do
things
such as train timings, certainty of making connections, etc. In my view,
the
present timetable is not very good, and considerable thought needs to be
given to improvements and to marketing generally.
The other thing is freight. The difficulties of reintroducing
freight
are severe for several reasons. Firstly, the restricted loading gauge
means
that BG or MG wagons on "rollbocken" or transporter wagons are not an
option; nor is the transport of ISO standard containers on flat wagons.
(Most people are unaware that the DHR's loading gauge is more restricted
than even the IRS 2ft gauge standard). That means that only wagon load
freight or special restricted size containers are viable; not a very
encouraging prospect.
From IRFCA's point of view, this means that time need not be
spent
on lobbying for the retention of the line. The important thing now is to
have some input to policy via the making of reasoned and practical
suggestions to the Railway Board. Interested IRFCA members might
consider
setting up a support group like the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway
Societies
already existing in Australia and Britain.
With best wishes to all,
Ken Walker

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 13 Feb 1999 19:50:13 -0500



> Second, they called for tenders for new, modern steam
> locomotives like the 'B' class....
Funnily, when you wrote "tenders" in the loco context,
I immediatly thought of a B-class with a tender... :)
> In my view, the present timetable is not very good, and considerable
> thought needs to be given to improvements and to marketing generally.
I wonder if even the introduction of mdern motive power will
improve timings, which are also affected by severe urban congestion.
Railcars may be faster due to their acceleration and braking, but
would presumably be quite expensive, and a little cumbersome on
the single line with one-ended passing sidings.
> The other thing is freight. The difficulties of reintroducing freight
> are severe for several reasons.
Slightly wild idea here: "rollbocken" may not be possible, but
how about piggybacking road trucks ? Would reduce pressure on
the HC Road if it worked, while taking care of distribution at the
Darjeeling end....
(Incidentally, what is the feedback after the piggybacking trials
on the Konkan Railway ?)
> Interested IRFCA members might consider
> setting up a support group like the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway
Societies
> already existing in Australia and Britain.
This is an excellent idea.

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: FyffesFL <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 14 Feb 1999 05:48:33 -0500


Re DHR loading gauge

Can someone please post the actual DHR loading gauge, plus axle weight
restyrictions, bridge cpacities, et al ?

In my professional life I have been involved several times in adapting
narrow
gauge vehicles to haul modern freight, admittedly larger gauges than 60
cm,
but the same principles apply.

Richard Yudin MCIT

From: Karthik Giddu <>

Subject: Feedback Required.

Date: 14 Feb 1999 08:21:08 -0500


Hello IR folks,
I am Karthik Giddu, having a Web Site at Tripod
(<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)">http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)</A> containing Ir Timetable, Farelist and
other Misc. information. I wish to intend to Update/overhaul my Site
within
the next 10-15 days for which I require kind Feedback. Please spare some
time (thanks for that) to visit the site and send me feeback at
gidduk@bigfoot.email or gidduk@vsnl.email
Also please give your Website Address(if, any) so that I can have a link
to
them.

Currently it is best viewed with IE 4.x (I am a MS fan) though it works
fine with Navigator 4.x. I intend to be more Browser Specific i.e. give
different browsers different files, especially for IE 5.0 which supports
XML and extend support for CSS 2.0
I using frames, shall i remove it??? to make if more user friendly.
What Additional Information is required to be added???
What Routes in the timetable has to be added on priority bases??
OR Any other thing which u can think of to be added???

I will try to put a lot of old photos(about 50 nos) when I update.

Again, I request u to visit my site and send me feedback. Ur Feedback is
eagerly awaited.

TIA
Bye,
Karthik
91-22-8014919

From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 14 Feb 1999 17:57:25 -0500


Dear Jayant,
Your posting has several points.
Firstly, timings. I'm not sure that "urban congestion" causes as
much
delay as antiquated operating practices and the use of engines in a poor
state of repair. The only longish bits of urban trackage are the
Kurseong
bazaar, the run through Jorebungalow to Ghum, and the descent into
Darjeeling below Batasia. On most of the rest of the line, a brisk pace
can
readily be maintained.
By contrast, during my visit to the line in January 1997, the
regular
passenger did not run to time once in four days. One day, 804 reached
Paglajhora with a bad steam blow, crossed another train, and finally
failed
beyond Mahanadi on the Upper Paglajhora stretch. The crew fixed it in
about
2 hours, amazingly, but of course by then most passengers had gone on by
bus. The train then staggered into Kurseong, where it was HAND-COALED by
coolies carrying baskets on their heads, taking well over an hour, and
didn't leave until it was almost dark. Simple overhead hoppers with
quick
releases, coaled in advance, would use labour better, and reduce delays.
They were invented well over 150 years ago. There is still a water stop
just
before the train reaches Darjeeling, at a point which could scarcely
have
been better designed to cause irritation to weary and impatient
travellers.
Points at at zig-zags and sidings are still locked by padlock, though
surplus mechanical facing point locks must be available from elsewhere
on
IR, and would markedly speed up operation. Hand braking is still the
rule;
the brakemen stand on the brakelevers at the ends of the cars on the
descent. Air braking would do far more than diesel traction to speed up
services, in both directions.
And do remember that, even without modern refinements, the best
time
from Siliguri to Darjeeling in 1941 was 5¼ hours, for the Mail. The
present
performance -- around 8 hours if you're lucky -- falls woefully short.
It
also means that one of the best train journeys in the whole world
becomes an
endurance test rather than an endlessly exciting novelty.
The other point about timetabling is that significant numbers of
passengers now arrive by air to Bagdogra and the present timetable
doesn't
cater for them; additionally, connections even for rail travellers are
often
poor, and much better systems of pre-booking and guaranteeing travel are
essential, especially but not only for foreign tourists. Shorter journey
times would make connections easier and more convenient.
Second. railcars. These can be quite cheap to build and operate.
The
Kalka-Simla had a premium railcar service, at three times the
first-class
fare, that halved the time up the hill. It ran for many years, leaving
Kalka
just before the Mail. It might be an interesting option for Darjeeling,
perahps for the Bagdogra connection. As there is a turntable at
Darjeeling
station, single-ended "bus" types like those of the KSR would be quite
feasible.
Third, piggyback. Piggybacking road vehicles (what the Amercians
call
TOFC -- trailer on flat car) is more demanding of clearance even than
containers. That is illustrated by our experience in Australia, where a
smaller loading gauge means that TOFC has been impossible except on the
Trans-Australia line, but single-stacked ISO containers have been easy.
The
DHR's most critical point in headroom terms would be the overbridge at
Chunbati, but lateral clearances would most likely be a serious headache
at
many points on the system.
Fourthly, in policy terms, it is important to remember that local
services could easily catered for by bus and truck, were that all that
was
required. But the Indian Government has long had a policy of encouraging
foreign tourism, for exchange reasons, and that lies behind both the
decision to retain the line and the recent application for World
Heritage
status. This has two implcations: firstly, although operating practices
could (and probably should) be modernised and equipment refurbished,
tourism
will require that the "heritage" elements be preserved and even
enhanced.
That could be taken to embrace not only retention of steam power and the
use
of the older rolling stock, but also new stock to old designs (even if
of
new materials) and the restoration of the old stations to their
nineteenth-century glory.
Finally: that Indian support group. Go to it! You have far more
potential members than we do!
Cheers from
Ken Walker

-----Original Message-----
From: Jayant S <sank@telco.email
To: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <kjw_meh@powerup.email IR List
<irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, 14 February 1999 2:03
Subject: Re: D.H.R.


>
>> Second, they called for tenders for new, modern steam
>> locomotives like the 'B' class....
>Funnily, when you wrote "tenders" in the loco context,
>I immediatly thought of a B-class with a tender... :)
>> In my view, the present timetable is not very good, and considerable
>> thought needs to be given to improvements and to marketing generally.
>I wonder if even the introduction of mdern motive power will
>improve timings, which are also affected by severe urban congestion.
>Railcars may be faster due to their acceleration and braking, but
>would presumably be quite expensive, and a little cumbersome on
>the single line with one-ended passing sidings.
>> The other thing is freight. The difficulties of reintroducing
freight
>> are severe for several reasons.
>Slightly wild idea here: "rollbocken" may not be possible, but
>how about piggybacking road trucks ? Would reduce pressure on
>the HC Road if it worked, while taking care of distribution at the
>Darjeeling end....
>(Incidentally, what is the feedback after the piggybacking trials
>on the Konkan Railway ?)
>> Interested IRFCA members might consider
>> setting up a support group like the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway
Societies
>> already existing in Australia and Britain.
>This is an excellent idea.
>
>--
>Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
>Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
>TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
>--
>

From: Peter Mosse <>

Subject: Calling On Signals

Date: 15 Feb 1999 14:02:31 -0500


I was off-list for a short while so please pardon me if the following
covers ground which has already been covered by postings which I didn't
see
...

Also, apologies in advance to anyone who considers this posting to be
off
topic. It is about calling on signals, but not in India !!

I had some experience in the early 1960's with a calling on signal in
the
UK that had nothing to do with the track ahead being occupied by another
train or locomotive or buffer stops. This was in North Wales where
three
signal boxes, Llandudno Jn No 1, Llandudno Jn No 2 and Llandudno Jn
Crossing (listed in the down direction) were spaced very close together
(less than 1/4 mile between each box). Llandudno Jn station was between
Jn
No 1 and Jn No 2 boxes and all down trains proceeding to Crossing (and
thence along the branch line to the seaside resort of Llandudno) had to
stop at the station. Crossing box, as the name implies, controlled a
level
crossing over a busy main road with gates operated manually (by spinning
a
large wheel in the signal box). All signals were manually operated
semaphore signals and the movement of trains from box to box was
controlled
by these signals and block instruments in the traditional way.

The relevant signals controlled by No 2 box were the down home signal at
the down end of the platform, the down starting signal a very short
distance away, ie before the level crossing, and a down calling on
signal
underneath the down starter.

When a train for Crossing was approaching No 2 box, line clear would be
obtained from Crossing in the normal way. This would permit No 2 box to
clear the calling on signal but unusually the down home signal and the
down
starter would remain locked. [ In practice the calling on signal would
not
be cleared until the train had been brought to a stand at the platform
and
the station inspector had notified No 2 box that it was ready to depart.
]

When the driver received the 'right away' from the guard, he would blow
the
engine's whistle to alert the signalman at Crossing box that the train
was
leaving. Only then would Crossing close the level crossing gates
against
the road. Once the gates were locked clear of the line, Crossing would
pull a lever which would manually turn a disc in No 2 box and release
the
lock on the down starting signal. No 2 box would then clear the
starting
signal and give Train Entering Section on the block instruments to
Crossing
box. Meantime the driver of the train, which had been coasting towards
the
down starting signal under the authority of the calling on signal, would
see the starting signal clear, yank open the regulator and off she would
go!

This procedure, obviously, was designed to minimise delays to road
traffic,
but sometimes in summer months road congestion was so bad that the gates
couldn't be closed in time and trains were brought to a halt at the down
starter. On summer Saturdays, when rail traffic was also very heavy
with
up to 8 steam trains an hour in each direction, flagmen were employed to
try to keep cars off the level crossing when the signalman needed to
close
the gates, but eventually the problems were so severe that a road
overbridge
was built. Once this was done there was no more need for Crossing box,
nor
for No 2 box's calling on signal.

Peter Mosse

From: Peter Mosse <>

Subject: Calling On Signals - WHOOPS !

Date: 15 Feb 1999 14:07:51 -0500


I just spotted a serious error in my posting on this topic.

The calling on signal I describe was located underneath the down home
signal, not the down starting signal.

Peter Mosse

From: S.B.Mehta <>

Subject: Which is this loco shed?

Date: 15 Feb 1999 19:08:55 -0500


Hi everyone!

Since last Friday I have been seeing a WDM2 with a dark and light
blue livery pulling the Dadar-Ratnagiri express. I could only see KJM
written on it by way of identification. Could anyone tell me what KJM
stands for and its location?

Thanks.

Sarosh
======================
Sarosh Bakhtyar Mehta
M/s. Godrej & Boyce Mfg.Co.Ltd.
Machine Tool Division
Pirojshanagar, Vikhroli,
MUMBAI 400 079
INDIA
Tel:(Office) 577 3535 / 577 3636 Extn: 3917/3907/3909
Tel:(Residence) 389 3150
Fax:(Office) 91 22 517 2229 / 91 22 518 2289
Email sarosh@godrej.email
=======================
Wisdom dawns only after knowledge is gained

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: Which is this loco shed?

Date: 15 Feb 1999 20:12:39 -0500


On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, S.B.Mehta wrote:

> Hi everyone!
>
> Since last Friday I have been seeing a WDM2 with a dark and light
> blue livery pulling the Dadar-Ratnagiri express. I could only see KJM
> written on it by way of identification. Could anyone tell me what KJM
> stands for and its location?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sarosh
> ======================
> Sarosh Bakhtyar Mehta
> M/s. Godrej & Boyce Mfg.Co.Ltd.
> Machine Tool Division
> Pirojshanagar, Vikhroli,
> MUMBAI 400 079
> INDIA
> Tel:(Office) 577 3535 / 577 3636 Extn: 3917/3907/3909
> Tel:(Residence) 389 3150
> Fax:(Office) 91 22 517 2229 / 91 22 518 2289
> Email sarosh@godrej.email
> =======================
> Wisdom dawns only after knowledge is gained
>

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

SAROSH,
KJM stands for Krishnarajapuram near Bangalore.

Poras.

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re: Which is this loco shed?

Date: 15 Feb 1999 21:23:17 -0500


I too saw the same thing - KJM is Krishnarajapuram Shed in Bangalore
Maybe KR is now using KJM engines too.


Rajan

-----Original Message-----
From: S.B.Mehta <sarosh@godrej.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Which is this loco shed?


Hi everyone!

Since last Friday I have been seeing a WDM2 with a dark and light
blue livery pulling the Dadar-Ratnagiri express. I could only see KJM
written on it by way of identification. Could anyone tell me what KJM
stands for and its location?

Thanks.

Sarosh

From: Joydeep Dutta <>

Subject: Re: Which is this loco shed?

Date: 16 Feb 1999 00:05:41 -0500


Hi
KJM stands for Krishnarajpuram, a southern railway which is near
Bangalore. The colour that you have mentioned is the passenger loco
colour code of that shed.
Joydeep
WDM2 is WDM2


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>
>Hi everyone!
>
>Since last Friday I have been seeing a WDM2 with a dark and light
>blue livery pulling the Dadar-Ratnagiri express. I could only see KJM
>written on it by way of identification. Could anyone tell me what KJM
>stands for and its location?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Sarosh
>======================
>Sarosh Bakhtyar Mehta
>M/s. Godrej & Boyce Mfg.Co.Ltd.
>Machine Tool Division
>Pirojshanagar, Vikhroli,
>MUMBAI 400 079
>INDIA
>Tel:(Office) 577 3535 / 577 3636 Extn: 3917/3907/3909
>Tel:(Residence) 389 3150
>Fax:(Office) 91 22 517 2229 / 91 22 518 2289
>Email sarosh@godrej.email
>=======================
>Wisdom dawns only after knowledge is gained


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>

From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Which is this loco shed?

Date: 16 Feb 1999 02:17:29 -0500


Hello,
KJM stands for Krishnarajapuram.
Its the diesel shed location of Bangalore.
Best regards.
Shankar



S.B.Mehta wrote:
>
> Hi everyone!
>
> Since last Friday I have been seeing a WDM2 with a dark and light
> blue livery pulling the Dadar-Ratnagiri express. I could only see KJM
> written on it by way of identification. Could anyone tell me what KJM
> stands for and its location?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Sarosh
> ======================
> Sarosh Bakhtyar Mehta
> M/s. Godrej & Boyce Mfg.Co.Ltd.
> Machine Tool Division
> Pirojshanagar, Vikhroli,
> MUMBAI 400 079
> INDIA
> Tel:(Office) 577 3535 / 577 3636 Extn: 3917/3907/3909
> Tel:(Residence) 389 3150
> Fax:(Office) 91 22 517 2229 / 91 22 518 2289
> Email sarosh@godrej.email
> =======================
> Wisdom dawns only after knowledge is gained

From: Steven Brown <>

Subject: Re: Feedback Required.

Date: 16 Feb 1999 16:30:26 -0500


Great Timetable website already!! Your website:
<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/gidduk">http://members.tripod.com/gidduk</A> is a lot more fun and interesting than
the
official search engine style sites.

Some thoughts on style: I am against frames because in part it makes it
hard to bookmark specific sections. Also too much graphics and applets
slow
a website down, it's not a problem with this site but some of the new
"Official" websites take a looong time to load here in the US. There
should
be a way of navigating without loading a lot of graphics. But of
course
we want to see all those train pictures.

Priorities: Before I had timetable links, I used to get e-mail from
airline
travelers planning to arrive in India by plane, wanting to continue by
rail.
So from that perspective the suggestion is to show service to and from
major
cities and also airport to rail station connecting information.
But another possible focus would be on tourist attractions (including
hill
railways)

Loking forward to seeing more.
Please feel free to include a link to my site if you want, I already
have
linked to your pages.
Steve
The Indian Railways Homepage (Unofficial) :
<A HREF="http://www.trainweb.com/indiarail">http://www.trainweb.com/indiarail</A>
-----Original Message-----
From: Karthik Giddu <gidduk@bom5.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 7:51 AM
Subject: Feedback Required.


>Hello IR folks,
>I am Karthik Giddu, having a Web Site at Tripod
>(<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)">http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)</A> containing Ir Timetable, Farelist
and
>other Misc. information. I wish to intend to Update/overhaul my Site
within
>the next 10-15 days for which I require kind Feedback. Please spare
some
>time (thanks for that) to visit the site and send me feeback at
>gidduk@bigfoot.email or gidduk@vsnl.email
>Also please give your Website Address(if, any) so that I can have a
link to
>them.
>
>Currently it is best viewed with IE 4.x (I am a MS fan) though it works
>fine with Navigator 4.x. I intend to be more Browser Specific i.e. give
>different browsers different files, especially for IE 5.0 which
supports
>XML and extend support for CSS 2.0
>I using frames, shall i remove it??? to make if more user friendly.
>What Additional Information is required to be added???
>What Routes in the timetable has to be added on priority bases??
>OR Any other thing which u can think of to be added???
>
>I will try to put a lot of old photos(about 50 nos) when I update.
>
>Again, I request u to visit my site and send me feedback. Ur Feedback
is
>eagerly awaited.
>
>TIA
>Bye,
>Karthik
>91-22-8014919
>
>
>

From: Mike Brooker <>

Subject: Re: Feedback Required.

Date: 16 Feb 1999 19:18:37 -0500


Dear Karthik:

Visited your web site today. Looks good (in Explorer 4.0), and had no
problems with the frames...though I prefer sites without frames.
Haven't
tried viewing it in Netscape yet.

I see that you have been studying in Canada...or is the "Open University
of
British Columbia" an "Internet school", where you can take courses
online
without physically being in Canada?

I visited India in 1995, but didn't visit anyplace south of Bombay.
Would
like to visit India again sometime after the turn of the century and
focus
on Tamil Nadu and Kerala. Trains that I travelled on while in India
include
the Shatabdi Express (Delhi-Agra & Baroda-Ahmedabad), Gujarat Mail
(Ahmedabad-Bombay Central), Rajdhani Express (Bombay Central-Mathura),
Janata Express (Mathura-Baroda -- my one experience in "sleeper
class"!),
Poorva Express (New Delhi-Varanasi), Mahanagari Express (Varanasi-Bombay
VT), Mussoorie Express (Delhi-Haridwar), and some local trains
(Haridwar-Rishikesh, Varanasi-Sarnath, Mathura-Vrindavan). I also
travelled
on a narrow-gauge line in Gujarat, between Kayavarohan and Dabhoi, but
by
1995 all the n.g. steam locos in Gujarat had been taken out of service.

I especially enjoyed my visit to Bombay. (It hadn't been officially
re-named Mumbai when I was there!) What neighbourhood of Bombay do you
live
in?

I am working on some new personal home pages which will include some
photos
of my India visit, along with some India travel links. I haven't
uploaded
the page yet, but do hope to have it online before the end of this
month.
In the meantime, please visit the "Inner Realm of Patria" (Sanskrit:
Antarbhumi Ramrajya), a "micronation" -- an independent, sovereign
country -- where yoga is the national sport and Sanskrit is one of the
official languages. <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5646/">http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/5646/</A>

********************************************************************
Mike Brooker
99 Wychcrest Ave.,
Toronto, ON M6G 3X8
CANADA
(416) 536-7406
********************************************************************


-----Original Message-----
From: Karthik Giddu <gidduk@bom5.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 10:52 AM
Subject: Feedback Required.


>Hello IR folks,
>I am Karthik Giddu, having a Web Site at Tripod
>(<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)">http://members.tripod.com/gidduk)</A> containing Ir Timetable, Farelist
and
>other Misc. information. I wish to intend to Update/overhaul my Site
within
>the next 10-15 days for which I require kind Feedback. Please spare
some
>time (thanks for that) to visit the site and send me feeback at
>gidduk@bigfoot.email or gidduk@vsnl.email
>Also please give your Website Address(if, any) so that I can have a
link to
>them.
>
>Currently it is best viewed with IE 4.x (I am a MS fan) though it works
>fine with Navigator 4.x. I intend to be more Browser Specific i.e. give
>different browsers different files, especially for IE 5.0 which
supports
>XML and extend support for CSS 2.0
>I using frames, shall i remove it??? to make if more user friendly.
>What Additional Information is required to be added???
>What Routes in the timetable has to be added on priority bases??
>OR Any other thing which u can think of to be added???
>
>I will try to put a lot of old photos(about 50 nos) when I update.
>
>Again, I request u to visit my site and send me feedback. Ur Feedback
is
>eagerly awaited.
>
>TIA
>Bye,
>Karthik
>91-22-8014919
>
>

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