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From: Balasubramanian, Vijay <>

Subject: Re: New Shatabdi

Date: 08 Feb 1999 09:40:48 -0500


>  
> Actually there is a sequence to the events. Originally, and
> till about 1993
> there was The Minar which ran between Bombay VT and
> Secunderabad. The Minar
> was a superfast - 2101/2102. There was a sharing of rake
> between this train
> and the then Konark which was a superfast in its own right
> 2119/2120. There
> was only a 25 minute gap for the board and name change to
> take effect. Of
> course from Mumbai there was some quota earmarked for beyond
> Secunderabad.
> In Pune, a few coaches were attached marked as
> "Pune-Waltair". The Minar
> used to depart at 2155 from Bombay VT.
>  
> However, this being the most prestigious train between Bombay
> and the Twin
> Cities, and with diluted capacity to serve the requirements
> of the Twin
> Cities of Hyderabad, a new train was introduced namely the
> "Hussainsagar
> Express" which was to run at 2310 from Bombay VT twice a
> week, and was to
> enhance capacity between Mumbai and the Twin Cities.
>  
> Further increase in capacity and rationalisation of the
> trains led to the
> changes that are today: The Hussainsagar was made a daily
> train, and the
> Konark extended to run between Bombay and Bhubaneshwar, and
> thus the Minar
> between Bombay and Secunderabad was rechristened the Konark. Thus an
> entirely new train to serve requirements of Bombay and Pune to beyond
> Secunderabad came into being, and thus the sectional coaches
> from Pune to
> Waltair were discontinued also. 
>  
> The timings of the Konark and Hussainsagar were interchanged
> to suit the
> respective requirements. Thus the Hussainsagar ran according
> to the slot of
> the Minar and the Konark to the slot of the recently introduced
> Hussainsagar. Later in due course, the Konark could not
> maintain its timings
> due to various reasons and thus had to be further rationalised. The
> departure was set for 1120am ex Bombay VT. it was then
> brought forward to
> its current time of 1500 hrs ex Mumbai CST.   
>


Thanks for the info., Rajan.  I wasn't aware that the Hussainsagar and
Minar
co-existed for a while.


> I feel that the Dadar and Lonavala Halts to the Pune Shatabdi
> are justified.
> Nizamuddin has been developed as another terminal for NR trains. Dadar
> however for Mumbai is much more - Dadar represents the centre
> of Mumbai,
> accessible from all ends by the western or central systems,
> and by road too.
> Thus this needs to be taken into consideration. Pune is a
> commuting distance
> and regular tarvellers who use Shatabdi all board from Dadar,
> which can save
> upto 45 minutes to an hour in ones morning. 
>  

 
I agree that Dadar plays a more vital role in catering to Mumbai traffic
than Nizamuddin w.r.t. Delhi.


>  
> Example Pune Shatabdi departs ex Mumbai CST at 0640 and Dadar
> at 0653. To
> get to dadar from say Ghatkopar, one would spend 20 minutes
> in a slow local.
> Thus one will have to catch a local at 0620-0625 to reach
> with a certain
> comfort zone. By contrast, from Ghatkopar to CSTM would take
> 41 minutes in a
> slow local, plus a longer time to change over from the
> Suburban terminal to
> the Main Line Terminal. One would have to catch the local at
> 0540-0545 to
> reach. Getting to CSTM by road is more unpredictable because of road
> conditions and unpredicted traffic (I've not forgotten that
> our discussion
> is a early Morning Train !!! ) For a regular traveller this
> would be too
> much. Thus the importance of Dadar is unique and finds no
> parallel anywhere
> else in India. 
> In contrast, Mumbai Central is much closer to Dadar and well
> connected by
> locals from Dadar (travel time 8-10min by slow train), and
> too close to
> warrant a halt for some of the faster train.
>       
>
>  
Well illustrated!!  Due to absence of fast locals in the wee
hours of the
morning or late at night, trains that depart from Mumbai CST
early morning
could halt at Dadar to provide a more convenient connection. 
On the same
token, superfast trains departing later could skip Dadar. 
This is probably
the reason why the Dn. Pushpak, Deccan Queen and Minar skip Dadar.
>  
>  
> Vijay
>
>  
>

From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>

Subject: Re: Cabinet okays Rs 2529 crore rail projects

Date: 08 Feb 1999 09:58:21 -0500



> new line of 110 km connecting Agra with Etawah
> in Uttar Pradesh at a cost of Rs 108 crore.

This is strange. What route will it take. Etawah-Tundla-Agra
is almost straight line. The only thing they need to do is
remove bottlenecks in Tundla-Agra section. Also, Etawah-Guna
is under construction for years. This line, along with
gauge conversion of Guna-Gwalior, will provide yet another
alternative path to Agra, although a little longer.

If this new line is going to cross Yamuna near Agra, then we
might we well use Etawah-Tundla-Agra route. If Yamuna is to
be crossed nearer to Etawah, then Etawah-Gwalior-Agra route
will make sense. Does it make sense to have another rail
bridge between these two points. If there is indeed a lot
of traffic between these points, and both the routes are
saturated (Etawah-Tundla is on Delhi-Howrah main line, and
Gwalior-Agra is on central railway mainline), then won't it
be simple to lay an extra track in parallel to existing track.

Etawah-Agra also happens to be on the golden quadrilateral
project, and a 6-lane highway is being planned.

Why do we need this new line.

-dheeraj
--------------
Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413
(Fax)
Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
Home Page: <A HREF="http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj">http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj</A>

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 08 Feb 1999 20:25:50 -0500


This was a GREAT post. Just a few
further thoughts:

"Dipl.-Ing. Nikolaus Sbarounis" wrote:

> The main question is if the DHR's physical features allow it to
fulfill any
> actual transport needs.
I would add one more factor to the ones you have listed: the Hill Cart
Road runs on the same alignment for most of the route as the DHR. The
mix between the road and rail traffic, not to mention rampant settlement

along the route, further slows down trains, reducing the railway to a
mere tramway.
> As far as motive power is concerned
>.........an entirely new (maybe articulated compound?)
I love the idea of that new articulated compound ! :) Let's see:
A gas-producer firebox, Kylchap exhaust-fitted 2-6-6-2 Garrett.....yum.
Are there any NG lines anywhere which are providing renumerative service

with mixed haulage using steam (like in Poland, for instance) ? The
RH&DR in the UK (15 inch gauge !) runs miniature steam, but uses
(used ?) diesels for the school train.
The Swiss systems are entirely electrified (is it mainly hydro power ?)
and run economically also because of the general Swiss de-emphasis on
road
transport, which favours rail. India in general has no integrated
surface
transport policy.
> However, if demand exists for some light passenger workings during the
day,
> I would suggest the introduction of railbuses.
This is something I have thought about for some years: It is safer
considering the road/rail mix on the line.
> It is true that the 2' gauge poses severe limits on a line's
performance.
The loading gauge, as far as I know, is pretty generous on the DHR; but
I do not think transporter wagons would be able to carry even meter
gauge stock. Effective transhipment can solve this.
> Judging from photos, the road doesn't look like a much better
performer.
Heavy vehicles cover the route at an average of 20-25 km/h. Light
vehicles tend to use the alternative steeply graded Pankhabari Road,
which cuts the time between DJ and Siliguri to 2.5 hours.

I am a little wary of the current preservation approach to the DHR.
While the B-class locos are an important part of world railroad history,

there is no way they can function economically in an active mixed
traffic rail setup. I find the attitude of "preserve it at all costs
and to hell with local needs" even more ridiculous. Heritage is
heritage,
but an underdeveloped region such as Darjeeling does have other
priorities.
The only effective way to retain the DHR in the longer term is to
make it a viable transportation system, with a balanced view of its
relevance in the overall transport scene, as well as its peculiar
set of constraints. With the right policy approach, the railway can
prove real reasons for its survival: the economy of bulk goods transport
as well as it's environment-friendliness.

I have been thinking of working out a proposal which could go the
DGHC, hopefully, with a few of these ideas. More ideas would be
welcome. Dr Walker ?

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY: Apurva

Date: 08 Feb 1999 22:13:03 -0500



> Just a thought which came up, how reliable is the B class today ?

From what I hear, and the general appearance of the B-Class
locos every time I see them on the line, the maintenance
has been surprisingly good at Tindharia, considering the
limited resources available. Loco failures are not all
that common, and would be ill-afforded in a mountain section.

My only doubt regarding the B-Class locos is their efficient
application in revenue service today, considering their age
and the technolgy at the time they were designed. Do they
even have superheaters ? I wonder. Of course, the simplicity
of the basic design, and serviceabilty, has helped keep them
going.

What would be an ideal loco for the DHR ? I am inclined
to think of railcar-based passenger transport during the
day, and long freights running through the night (when
road vehicles generally do not run). Some investment is
needed for new frieght terminals, locos etc (I am currently
caught up with delirious visions of a brand new articulated
steamer pounding its way up the line).

What is the axleload limit on the DHR today ? At least
8000 kgs ?

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 08 Feb 1999 22:19:40 -0500


Gang !

Just a thought which came up, how reliable is the B class today ? We
observed in
Wankaner last month, that the YP and YGs are in such a state of
disrepair that
they cannot be guaranteed to haul a train within its timing on any day.
Any B
class power is older than the Wankaner engines. So how reliable are they
?
If a commercial use of railways from point A to B, then railways would
have some
commitment of time. Although old steam engines are a quaint way of
getting around
they may not be the most reliable or efficient method. Now before I
receive a
barrage of stones from many of you, these are purely personal thought
please.
Coincidentally while we were at Wankaner, we read the news that the DHR
has
already been declared a heritage railway.

Apurva

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 09 Feb 1999 09:07:25 -0500


Dear Nikolaus and all,

That's a wonderful case study you have prepared or atleast have set one
going. And my, you have a way with those words.

>As far as motive power is concerned, I don't
>think that steam is necessarily an anachronism, but the present locos
don't
>seem fit to cope with all transport needs. Since steam is important for
the
>line's image, I would consider moderization of most existing engines,
as
>well as the creation of an entirely new (maybe articulated compound?)
class
>for heavy mixed-traffic use, retaining some original examples for
lighter
>work and special uses.


There is a comparitive study being undertaken at the moment to decide
about
the future of the motive power on the line. By all accounts, I gather
that
it will be diesel locos/railcars which will be choosen in the end.
Although
the personal aesthetics don't seem to come in terms with this, what Iam
sure
of is that I'd rather have a partially dieselised line than nothing at
all!
There was a global tender floated by IR for new locomotives(steam)
sometime
back. The responses were not very encouraging and those who did come
forward
quoted exhorbitant prices(Even an oil fired B class option was
considered).
Would you know anyone who maybe keen on making a replica of the B class
or
even a new articulated compound as you say?


>However, if demand exists for some light passenger workings during the
day,
>I would suggest the introduction of railbuses. Even electrification
might
be
>an option, if there is mid-term potential traffic expected, that
demands
>anything heavier than single-headed steam trains. Remember that some
reserve
>line capacity is always welcome.

Apart from huge investments that this entails, it also needs some very
bold
decision makers, and that's just out of question. Playing safe is the
order
of the day.

>It is true that the 2' gauge poses severe limits on a line's
performance. I
>don't think there is a scope for regauging; if this alignement could
>accommodate a wider gauge, they would have done it from the beginning.
One
>important limitation is the unsuitability for carrying broad-gauge
wagons
on
>transporter trucks to avoid transshipment; however, it may be possible
to
>interchange such traffic with the metre gauge at the DHR's southern
>terminus. Some transporter truck trials would be necessary to certify
this
>possibility (in terms of stability and loading gauge adequacy). Another
job
>for the R&D folks!

The MG Siliguri Jn is all but finished and there is very little freight
movement on this route. Eventually this too will be converted to BG.


>Another limitation lies in the maximum permitted speed. Although fast
>railcars on North African 2-footers have regularly run as fast as 60
km/h
>(twice the maximum permitted elsewhere), it is doubtful if the
mountainous
>alignement will permit even half of this speed. Judging from photos,
the
>road doesn't look like a much better performer.


The road gets better and better as the railway go from bad to worse. The
only problem areas are Tindharia, Kurseong, Sonada, Jorbunglow and Ghoom
where there is no scope of widening the road further. And this causes
the
increase in pressure from the road lobby to take out the rails.

Thanks for providing the website addresses as well. I shall join you
with
more after a visit.

Harsh

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: YP Photo

Date: 09 Feb 1999 23:12:17 -0500


<A HREF="http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/steam/in/unknown/2189.htm">http://www.webpraxis.ab.ca/vrr/steam/in/unknown/2189.htm</A>

YP at Delhi Junction.

JS

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 10 Feb 1999 05:01:54 -0500


Apurva,
Tell me what relation is there between reliability/maintenance of an
engine
and its age. YP/YGs are not `old' steam engines by any standards. YG
3415/38
which haul the `royal orient' are immaculate and hurl the 14 coach train
to
110 kmph easily. Some of the engines at Wankaner are much younger than
these. Water is another problem at Wankaner.

The B class are not getting younger by any means surely still have many
more
years left in them. Anyone suggesting the use of current B class stock
for
freight haulage must be out of wits. Surely new engines(read diesels)
will
have to be brought in if any effective revival of freight on DHR is
envisaged. But there are many other aspects which need to be looked into
for
a resurrection of this sort and motive power is a much smaller issue.

harsh

>Just a thought which came up, how reliable is the B class today ? We
observed in
>Wankaner last month, that the YP and YGs are in such a state of
disrepair
that
>they cannot be guaranteed to haul a train within its timing on any day.
Any
B
>class power is older than the Wankaner engines. So how reliable are
they ?
>If a commercial use of railways from point A to B, then railways would
have
some
>commitment of time. Although old steam engines are a quaint way of
getting
around
>they may not be the most reliable or efficient method. Now before I
receive
a
>barrage of stones from many of you, these are purely personal thought
please.
>Coincidentally while we were at Wankaner, we read the news that the DHR
has
>already been declared a heritage railway.
>
>Apurva
>
>
>

From: Raymond Marsh <>

Subject: D.H.R.

Date: 10 Feb 1999 12:28:15 -0500


I have watched the frightening story of the future of the D.H.R. unfold.
It seems that there is more interest in retaining this line than most of
the N.g. lines which happily survive in India. Why are the other N.G.
lines not under threat. Do the other Hill station lines make a profit ?
If they do, then they should be looked at with a view to putting into
place similar operating and traffic generating measures on to the D.H.R.
I haven't read much on I.R. N.G. lines since dieselisation, but imagine
they are in a rather healthy financial state .
Could somebody tell me whether they are all profitable or are they also
heavily subsidised ?

Ray Marsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 10 Feb 1999 21:40:38 -0500




Harsh Vardhan wrote:

> Apurva,
> Tell me what relation is there between reliability/maintenance of an
engine
> and its age. YP/YGs are not `old' steam engines by any standards. YG
3415/38
> which haul the `royal orient' are immaculate and hurl the 14 coach
train to
> 110 kmph easily. Some of the engines at Wankaner are much younger than
> these. Water is another problem at Wankaner.

Something to do with the age of the boiler ? But surely know about that
better
than anyone within us as you professionally work with boilers. A
pressure vessel
cannot last forever. And maybe that is what determines the age of a
machine.
Maybe the Indian made YP/YGs are manufactured with an inferior standard
than the
B class? I would like your explanation on why the majority of the
Wankaner
powers are unfit for reliable use. Why do these locos it difficult to
haul even
a 5 coach train ? Maybe the running clearance has given away, as most of
the
Wankaner locos lack the sharp beat that I associate with a YP/YG. In the
past I
have seen single headed YP/ YG hauling full sized mail express/ freight
rakes
out of Miraj with good speed and with reliable timings.

> The B class are not getting younger by any means surely still have
many more
> years left in them. Anyone suggesting the use of current B class stock
for
> freight haulage must be out of wits. Surely new engines(read diesels)
will
> have to be brought in if any effective revival of freight on DHR is
> envisaged.

Has the standard ZDMx loco tried on the DHR ? I remember reading that a
trial
was conducted but the results were far from encouraging. What is the
special
property of the B class which the ZDM class cannot achieve? Something to
do with
the limits of adhesion ? I am quite sure that a modified CLW diesel
hydraulic
would do just great for DHR as well as the Ooty railway. Its just that
CLW has
its hand full of so many other things that a tourist railway is not a
priority
with them.

Apurva

From: Roger G. Morris <>

Subject: Diesel photos on web site - eventually!

Date: 11 Feb 1999 12:14:07 -0500


I've finally got around to posting the promised pictures of IR diesels.
Following "complaints" <g> I've left the steam photos up for a month or
two more. A new job stops me from updating my pages on a more regular
basis for a while - hopefully normal service will be resumed shortly!

No captions yet but to see the thumbnails go to

<A HREF="http://www.buriton.demon.co.uk/asia.html">http://www.buriton.demon.co.uk/asia.html</A>

go toward the bottom of the page past IR steam and China and there are 6
thumbnails to choose from. Click the thumbnail or the title to go to a
full size photo.

Keep up all the interesting chatter.
--
Roger G. Morris

Rail images and more at <A HREF="http://www.buriton.demon.co.uk/">http://www.buriton.demon.co.uk/</A>
The home of the Buriton Wheelbarrow

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 11 Feb 1999 19:45:05 -0500



> Has the standard ZDMx loco tried on the DHR ? I remember reading that
a trial
> was conducted but the results were far from encouraging.
Loco from Matheran, I believe. Didn't quite pull to satisfaction
from what I have gathered. What is the ruling grade at Matheran
(DHR is 1 in 20. I think ?)? The Welsh loco "Linda" was due for
testing on the DHR sometime soon; an old machine, but modernised
and oil-fired.
> Something to do with the limits of adhesion ? I am quite sure that a
> modified CLW diesel hydraulic would do just great for DHR....
The B-Class put some 16 tonnes onto 2 driven axles: that is a lot
of adhesion for the hills. Even then, wheelslip is common. What
are the equivalent figures for the ZDM type ? Also, the hp and
tractive effort figures for both would be of interest. I would
imagine that, for an all-night freight operation on the DHR, you
would need something which can haul up a train of 5 or 6 30-tonne
GVW four axle boxcars (used to be lots of them at one time on
the line) on the ruling grade. I wonder if the Matheran loco,
or even the B-class as it is today, could do that.

Hmm. Assuming that the a 150-tonne train (presumably with a
payload of 90-odd tonnes ?) is possible, you are talking about
REPLACING at least 20 trucks on the HC Road....and 20 trucks
occupy a lot more space on the road and in built-up areas.
I think some figuring is needed here.
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: DEHRADUN EXPRESS AND FEROZEPUR JANATA A COMPARISON

Date: 11 Feb 1999 21:40:21 -0500


Hi Gang,
It is indeed amusing that whereas all trains to NDLS are superfasts run
by
WR, two trains strike my mind which are super slows, namely the 9019dn
and
the 9023 dn Dehradun Exp and the Ferozepur Janata Express (erstwhile
Delhi
Janata Express) Dehradun express is the slowest of all trains going to
Delhi and Ferozepur takes roughly 29 hrs. Ferozepur Janata has halts
at
almost all stns after Dahanu road, i.e. umbergaum, sanjan bhilad, vapi
Udvada, pardi, valsad andso on. Its literally a passenger train in the
day
time but runs at a good speed after Ratlam in the night. On the other
hand Dehradun is the slowest train going to Delhi and earlier I remember
that there were coaches attached for Indore, Agra, Ujjain, etc. I
dont
know whether it really touches Agra or just coaches are attached. Why
is
it so slow so as to take roughly around34 hrs to Delhi.

Again from Delhi to Dehradun it goes via Rohtak, meerut lashkar Haridwar
and Dehradun. The Mussoorie Express takes a completely different route.

I was sitting in the Toilet and browsing thru the TAAG !( what a place
to
go thru a rly tt) and then on the rail map I Saw that there is a Ng line
to Rshikesh too. I asked many friends and nobody could tell me for
certain whether any train is plying there . Coming to our earlier talk
Feroze pur Janata goes to Ferozepur and in the days when steam was
operational it used to be hauled by the Sher -e- Punjab, loco which is
now
laid to rest peacefully at the NRM at Delhi.

Can someone from the group throw light on the above.

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: Joydeep Dutta <>

Subject: Re: DEHRADUN EXPRESS AND FEROZEPUR JANATA A COMPARISON

Date: 12 Feb 1999 00:55:52 -0500



There is no ng line to rishikesh but a bg branch line which turns off
after crossing two stations from Haridwar while going towards Dehradun.
I have infact travelled from Haridwar to risikesh on the branch line
passenger train (WDM2 hauled). The first station after
Haridwar is Motichur. I dont remember the second station and the
junction point. The main road in Haridwar from the station to Har - ki-
Pari is called the Railway road. That's quiet curious in the holy town.
Joydeep Dutta

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>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:10:21 +0530 (IST)
>From: "poras p.saklatwalla " <pps@godrej.email
>To: irfca@cs.email
>Subject: DEHRADUN EXPRESS AND FEROZEPUR JANATA A COMPARISON
>Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.990212102752.12211A-100000@godrej.email
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Hi Gang,
>It is indeed amusing that whereas all trains to NDLS are superfasts run

by
>WR, two trains strike my mind which are super slows, namely the 9019dn
and
>the 9023 dn Dehradun Exp and the Ferozepur Janata Express (erstwhile
Delhi
>Janata Express) Dehradun express is the slowest of all trains going
to
>Delhi and Ferozepur takes roughly 29 hrs. Ferozepur Janata has halts
at
>almost all stns after Dahanu road, i.e. umbergaum, sanjan bhilad, vapi
>Udvada, pardi, valsad andso on. Its literally a passenger train in the
day
>time but runs at a good speed after Ratlam in the night. On the other
>hand Dehradun is the slowest train going to Delhi and earlier I
remember
>that there were coaches attached for Indore, Agra, Ujjain, etc. I
dont
>know whether it really touches Agra or just coaches are attached. Why
is
>it so slow so as to take roughly around34 hrs to Delhi.
>
>Again from Delhi to Dehradun it goes via Rohtak, meerut lashkar
Haridwar
>and Dehradun. The Mussoorie Express takes a completely different
route.
>
>I was sitting in the Toilet and browsing thru the TAAG !( what a place
to
>go thru a rly tt) and then on the rail map I Saw that there is a Ng
line
>to Rshikesh too. I asked many friends and nobody could tell me for
>certain whether any train is plying there . Coming to our earlier talk
>Feroze pur Janata goes to Ferozepur and in the days when steam was
>operational it used to be hauled by the Sher -e- Punjab, loco which is
now
>laid to rest peacefully at the NRM at Delhi.
>
>Can someone from the group throw light on the above.
>
>PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
>TEL :5773535/3636
>EXT :4226/4232/4237
>
>


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From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: DEHRADUN EXPRESS AND FEROZEPUR JANATA A COMPARISON

Date: 12 Feb 1999 01:28:42 -0500



>There is no ng line to rishikesh but a bg branch line which turns off
>after crossing two stations from Haridwar while going towards Dehradun.

>I have infact travelled from Haridwar to risikesh on the branch line
>passenger train (WDM2 hauled). The first station after
>Haridwar is Motichur. I dont remember the second station and the
>junction point.

Raiwala Junction.

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: DEHRADUN EXPRESS AND FEROZEPUR JANATA A COMPARISON

Date: 12 Feb 1999 01:47:02 -0500



>It is indeed amusing that whereas all trains to NDLS are superfasts run
by
>WR, two trains strike my mind which are super slows, namely the 9019dn
and
>the 9023 dn Dehradun Exp and the Ferozepur Janata Express (erstwhile
Delhi
>Janata Express) Dehradun express is the slowest of all trains going
to
>Delhi and Ferozepur takes roughly 29 hrs.

Nearly 31 Hrs on the NDLS-BCT leg.

> Ferozepur Janata has halts at
>almost all stns after Dahanu road, i.e. umbergaum, sanjan bhilad, vapi
>Udvada, pardi, valsad andso on. Its literally a passenger train in the
day
>time but runs at a good speed after Ratlam in the night. On the other
>hand Dehradun is the slowest train going to Delhi and earlier I
remember
>that there were coaches attached for Indore, Agra, Ujjain, etc. I
dont
>know whether it really touches Agra or just coaches are attached.

No coaches for Agra now or even Ujjain and Indore. These places have
better
self serving daily trains.

> Why is
>it so slow so as to take roughly around34 hrs to Delhi.

>

To avoid the `transshipment' problem. You see people from small stations
enroute also want to travel to Bombay and Delhi who'd otherwise have to
change trains. In the daytime it serves as a local passenger for the
local
populace without WR having to run a seperate train(and get express fare
in
bargain)

>Again from Delhi to Dehradun it goes via Rohtak, meerut lashkar
Haridwar
>and Dehradun. The Mussoorie Express takes a completely different
route.
>

It doesn't touch Rohtak.

>I was sitting in the Toilet and browsing thru the TAAG !( what a place
to
>go thru a rly tt) and then on the rail map I Saw that there is a Ng
line
>to Rshikesh too. I asked many friends and nobody could tell me for
>certain whether any train is plying there .

Good for you but I'd reccomend that you stick to the desi NR TT or even
an
All India Abstract. They do revise the maps at once a year.

Rishikesh-Haridwar is a branch line(BG) offshooting the Dehradun main
line.
They run 4 passenger trains a day in each direction and caary some
through
bogies for the mails/expresses.


> Coming to our earlier talk
>Feroze pur Janata goes to Ferozepur and in the days when steam was
>operational it used to be hauled by the Sher -e- Punjab, loco which is
now
>laid to rest peacefully at the NRM at Delhi.
>


Correct. And for the last journey too it hauled the 9024 on 06.12.95
before
it came to the museum on its own steam.

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: DHR QUERY

Date: 12 Feb 1999 02:13:09 -0500



>Something to do with the age of the boiler ? But surely know about that
better
>than anyone within us as you professionally work with boilers. A
pressure
vessel
>cannot last forever. And maybe that is what determines the age of a
machine.
>Maybe the Indian made YP/YGs are manufactured with an inferior standard
than the
>B class? I would like your explanation on why the majority of the
Wankaner
>powers are unfit for reliable use. Why do these locos it difficult to
haul
even
>a 5 coach train ? Maybe the running clearance has given away, as most
of
the
>Wankaner locos lack the sharp beat that I associate with a YP/YG. In
the
past I
>have seen single headed YP/ YG hauling full sized mail express/ freight
rakes
>out of Miraj with good speed and with reliable timings.
>

40 years(average) is no age for a locomotive boiler to retire. Iam sure
you
know that industries use loco boilers for many more decades after
they've
retired from their working lives on the rails. There are lot more
aspects of
maintenance of a steam loco which eventually decide its working life.
And
that is what is lacking at Wankaner. With the required skill and
facilities
gone, the picture is only going get further grim.
You should have visited Jetalsar as well and have seen the fine YP's
that
they have. Infact the last two YP's(2151 and 2813) that were transferred
from there to Wankaner ended up in scrap pile in less than a year. Miraj
area is a much difficult terrain compared to coastal Gujarat and if the
same
locos could work efficiently there less than a decade ago I don't see
what
is wrong with the life of Wankaner locos.
Wankaner does not need more than 2 coach passenger train(though
occasionally
they use upto five) but the same locos haul 14-16 wagon loaded salt
trains.
Although B class locos are designed and most suited for the DHR, they
are
technically much inferior than any of the post-war locos.

>Has the standard ZDMx loco tried on the DHR ? I remember reading that a
trial
>was conducted but the results were far from encouraging. What is the
special
>property of the B class which the ZDM class cannot achieve? Something
to do
with
>the limits of adhesion ? I am quite sure that a modified CLW diesel
hydraulic
>would do just great for DHR as well as the Ooty railway. Its just that
CLW
has
>its hand full of so many other things that a tourist railway is not a
priority
>with them.
>

NDM 5 from Matheran. The weight adhesion ratio was not suited and wheels
would slip. there are many aspects but the important one is the above
one
due to a short wheelbase.

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 12 Feb 1999 02:29:53 -0500





>I have watched the frightening story of the future of the D.H.R.
unfold.
>It seems that there is more interest in retaining this line than most
of
>the N.g. lines which happily survive in India. Why are the other N.G.
>lines not under threat.

Most of the unrenumerative NG lines on the plains have already gone off.
Some remain due to political pressure, few to connect areas not covered
extensively by road or to to provide cheaper means to travel to
villagers/tribals(All of NG in West Bengal/ Orrisa/ Bihar area, Gwalior
area, Murtazapur-Yeotmal, Pulgaon-Arvi, Kosamba-Umarpada,
Billimoria-Waghai
etc.) and some because they are on the gauge conversion plan(barsi light
railway, satpura vally railway). These are all heavily subsidised and
have
to contend with mostly ticketless passengers.

>Do the other Hill station lines make a profit ?


Kalka - Simla and Nilgiri railway do well to support themselves. Kangra
vally
and Matheran are not too bad compared by the standard set by the rest.

DHR apart from low passenger traffic and no freight service have to live
with damage sustained every year due to rain and landslips. DHR is
practically closed for 4-6 months every year which makes it financially
unviable.

harsh

From: Joydeep Dutta <>

Subject: Re: D.H.R.

Date: 12 Feb 1999 03:53:13 -0500



The day I travelled on the Rupsa - baripapda- bangriposi ng railway in
Orissa there was no sale of ticket at Betnotti the most important
intermediate station, but a huge number of passengers got into the
train. The station master was stupified at that and asked the guard to
stop the train. He did( I was in the brake van) and then he just had to
stand and observe the huge rush in that small train with no money to the

railway. I think the social service that the IR gives in such remote
areas of the country can match any outstanding NGO. On that same railway

there had been a record sale of six rupees on a certain month! The gauge

conversion of the railway was proposed in 1961 but still pending. But if

completed that would be the shortest link between the mineral ores mines

on the SE railway and the Paradip port
since the line can be extended to Badampahar near Tatanagar. Currently a

ZDM4A and a ZDM5 works the line. Booked speed between Rupsa and Baripada

is 35km/h and between baripada and bangriposi onlt 16 km/h. Old watering

columns for watering the thirsty ZE, CC and PL class locos are still in
place.
Joydeep
bg is huge, ng is too small and mg is beautiful

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>Reply-To: "Harsh Vardhan" <hvc@vsnl.email
>From: "Harsh Vardhan" <champa@del3.email
>To: "Raymond Marsh" <photoray@alphalink.email <irfca@cs.email
>Subject: Re: D.H.R.
>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:59:53 +0530
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>
>
>>I have watched the frightening story of the future of the D.H.R.
unfold.
>>It seems that there is more interest in retaining this line than most
of
>>the N.g. lines which happily survive in India. Why are the other N.G.
>>lines not under threat.
>
>Most of the unrenumerative NG lines on the plains have already gone
off.
>Some remain due to political pressure, few to connect areas not covered
>extensively by road or to to provide cheaper means to travel to
>villagers/tribals(All of NG in West Bengal/ Orrisa/ Bihar area, Gwalior
>area, Murtazapur-Yeotmal, Pulgaon-Arvi, Kosamba-Umarpada,
Billimoria-Waghai
>etc.) and some because they are on the gauge conversion plan(barsi
light
>railway, satpura vally railway). These are all heavily subsidised and
have
>to contend with mostly ticketless passengers.
>
>>Do the other Hill station lines make a profit ?
>
>
>Kalka - Simla and Nilgiri railway do well to support themselves. Kangra
>vally
>and Matheran are not too bad compared by the standard set by the rest.
>
>DHR apart from low passenger traffic and no freight service have to
live
>with damage sustained every year due to rain and landslips. DHR is
>practically closed for 4-6 months every year which makes it financially
>unviable.
>
>harsh
>
>
>


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From: GOODWIN ALCO <>

Subject: Re: Alcos International

Date: 12 Feb 1999 05:33:15 -0500


Hi,
Well it has been well over a year now since the Alcos International
site started, so it has been decided to give it a overhaul.
I have decided to streamline it a bit, to make it easier to keep up
with. This streamlining has involved the cutting of the Tours, Q&A and
news sections, which will all now be placed on our Alco Forum.
At the same time I have incorporated allt the other websites that I am
involved in
1- Alcos International
2- Botany Line MRC (with David)
3- Australian Motive Power Review/Rosters (with Bob)
4- Philippine Unofficial Railway Site "yet to open"

The excessive size of Alcos International meant that I could not keep
it always updated. The photo albums will be gradually added to and then
when full, they will see occasional changed (dates will indicate latest
change).

Please take a new look at the web sites and let me know what you
think.
Best Wishes
Brad

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