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From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: What's an IR locoway?

Date: 27 Nov 1998 14:00:40 -0500




Jayant S wrote:

> > Anyway, what are the weights of IR locos?
> I suppose the heaviest locos used in India were
> the N class Garratts of the Bengal Nagpur Railway,
> coming in at 235 tonnes (517000 lbs): still less
> than what the cube of gauge rule would predict !
> > But, I don't remember bridges in India being that much more sturdy
> > than US bridges.
> The axleloads in India being much lower than the US,
> I guess. What are the maximum axleloads on regular
> right-of-way in each country ? I am told that it
> exceeeds 30 tonnes on most US lines......
>
> --
> Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> --

425,000lbs = 35 tons/axle on a 6 axle loco (which the 90MAC is)
(uhm.. in the US a ton = 2000 lbs - if memory serves
there's a couple of other 'ton's out there).

Hmm..

A UP "Big Boy" weighed in at 772,000 lbs. This on a 4-8-8-4 articulated
setup that
put 540,000 lbs on the drivers, for 33.75 tonnes/axle.

There's a fascinating (us oriented) discusssion of what the "largest"
steam loco is at
<A HREF="http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/largest.html">http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/largest.html</A>
(this page makes more sense if you know that a "Big Boy" is a UP class
2)

I've spent some time on the web and with a spreadsheet, and it looks
like axle loads
for steam locos were limited to about 33 tons/axle, while modern diesels
are exceeding
35 tons/axle.

But the highest axle loading I've found is the C&O H-8, at 39.25
tons/axle on the drivers

The highest total weight is the C&O M-1 at 1,233,970 lbs.

This is interesting - apparently, despite the gage difference, US
equipment is slightly _heavier_
than most Indian equipment!

So much for the old "cube of the gage" rule, which works quite well up
to about 4'-8"!

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Axle loads

Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:38:21 -0500


Nice discussion, Annie:
> There's a fascinating (us oriented) discusssion of what the "largest"
> steam loco is at
> <A HREF="http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/largest.html">http://www.steamlocomotive.com/misc/largest.html</A>
> (this page makes more sense if you know that a "Big Boy" is a UP class
2)
I've seen that page and have always dreamt of someday seeing a
Big Boy in person. Heard that one was to be restored soon.
Is that still on ?
> But the highest axle loading I've found is the C&O H-8, at 39.25
> tons/axle on the drivers
Phew ! I don't know of any Indian line exceeding 24 tonnes
axleloading. (Anyone have correct info ?)
> So much for the old "cube of the gage" rule, which works quite well up
> to about 4'-8"!
I guess the point is that as long as track gauge is
not too different, it is the axleload limits and the
loading gauge which actually determine the size and
weight of the equipment. Does anyone know the axleload
limits in the former USSR ? They had the largest
loading gauge with a permitted height of 5.3 meters (!!)
on a 5 foot track gauge.......

--
Jayant S
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Tragic accident: Apurva/Madhav

Date: 27 Nov 1998 19:39:09 -0500


> It depends on the vigilance of the
> > derailed train's driver and the guard to protect the other line.
> I think regulations require the driver to operate the flasher signal
> located next to his headlight to warn oncoming trains.

That flasher light is a joke. What chance does a 50 Watt lamp have
against fog, as was the case last night. And what if the lamp is not
switched on. I think a modified version of the FRED or a EOTD which
detects derailment and warns all the traffic in the section by radio is
the answer. How appropriate that we were discussing the very subject.

Here is what seems to have happened. As Jayant speculated and I tend to
agree with him, the last coaches of the Frontier / Golden Temple mail
derailed, as they derailed the coupling snapped. A coupling failure
means nothing like derailment, although the other way round is likely.
The derailed coached were flung across the opposite tracks. The watchman
of a railway facility who was very near the site called the nearby
station to warn the section controller of the derailment. But the
Sealdah Express was already on the way. Many passengers were trapped in
the coaches due to the derailment which had jammed the doors. The
Sealdah express loco ploughed within minutes into these coaches.
What safety devices could have avoided this catastrophe according to
members of the IRFCA ?

Apurva

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: loading gauges

Date: 27 Nov 1998 20:02:30 -0500


C.L.Zeni wrote:
> As Caprotti (of valve gear fame) said when he visited the US in the
> 1930s and saw our railways, "You don't move trains - you move houses!"
I'd like to see Russian trains with their 17+ feet height.
What are the largest loading gauge limits on IR ?
Once read a fascinating account of what Hitler had planned
for the future rail network in the Third Reich.
Apparently the track gauge was to be 3 meters (or thereabouts)
with rolling stock to match.......just imagine.
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Tragic accident: Apurva/Madhav

Date: 27 Nov 1998 20:14:09 -0500


> I think a modified version of the FRED or a EOTD which
> detects derailment and warns all the traffic in the section by radio
is
> the answer. How appropriate that we were discussing the very subject.
Can a derailment in which stock is thrown on to the opposite
line on a double-track section set off the track circuit ?
Just wondering.
> Here is what seems to have happened. As Jayant speculated and I tend
to
> agree with him, the last coaches of the Frontier / Golden Temple mail
> derailed, as they derailed the coupling snapped. A coupling failure
> means nothing like derailment, although the other way round is likely.
However, the authorities seem to insist that the coupling failure
happened first. Is it possible that the automatic brake application
derailed the detached coaches ?
> What safety devices could have avoided this catastrophe according to
> members of the IRFCA ?
With a short time gap there is practically nothing that can be
done in such a situation, and we can only wonder if it is
a statistically significant possibility. This kind of accident
happens all over the world. To put 100m or so between parallel
tracks may be the only preventive measure, and this is,
of course, unthinkable.

--
Jayant S
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Accident

Date: 27 Nov 1998 23:29:01 -0500


This ( New Delhi - Jammu Tawi) is an unelectrified section, these must
be WDM 2s on both trains from Ludhiana (LDH) or Tughlakabad (TKD)
sheds. The loco of the Sealdah express appears to be a write off, both
the drivers of that train were killed, the Frontier loco was not
involved in the collision and its crew must be okay.

Apurva

Larry Russell wrote:

> Hi all,
> Anyone know which locomotives were involved in the accident and damage
> estimates?
> Larry

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Tragic accident: Anne

Date: 28 Nov 1998 00:49:38 -0500


> > With a short time gap there is practically nothing that can be
> > done in such a situation, and we can only wonder if it is
> > a statistically significant possibility. This kind of accident
> > happens all over the world. To put 100m or so between parallel
> > tracks may be the only preventive measure, and this is,
> > of course, unthinkable.
> How close were the trains when the Frontier derailed?
> They said "within minutes".

I read that it took something like three minutes from the
time of derailment (some witnesses say it took only one).
Apparently the Sealdah Exp was doing 100 km/h, which means
it would have been, let's see, 5 kilometers away from the
accident site (assuming a 3 minute gap). I suppose the
emergency braking distance should be less than 2 km, which
means that (if the 3-minute estimate is correct) there
just MIGHT have been enough time for a radio warning.
With a one-minute gap the train would have been only
1.6 km away, likely not enough to pull up in.
We will never know when exactly the loco crew realised what
was about to happen, as they were killed in the crash.

Why does IR have a high incidence of derailment, even on
routes which are maintained to a high standard ?

--
Jayant S
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Tragic accident: Apurva/Madhav

Date: 28 Nov 1998 05:09:39 -0500

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 28 Nov 1998 05:32:28 -0500


Gang !

Check out this news item from Times of India about the very intresting
antique garden railway. I wish my father was as rich, so I could go to
school in my private train !
Go to:
<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html">http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html</A>

Apurva

From: Sachin P Keshavan <>

Subject: Re: The accident some questions

Date: 28 Nov 1998 06:02:36 -0500


Hi all,
There was mail in the list which said that Walkie Talkies could have
been used to avoid the collission. The truth will never come out since,
the drivers have died. I have a question here. All all railway stations
equipped with wireless? It seems an alert gate keeper had informed the
Khanna station of the derailment. But did Khanna station have a wireless

set to contact the Sealdah Exp?
I think the Radios which the running staff carry are only to
communicate between them selves and not with the station staff.
BTW do the Railways keep up any list of Railway men who have died in
the line of duty? Also is there any provision for giving the alert gate
man any incentive?

Thanks,
Sachin.
*******************************************
Sachin P Keshavan,
E mail: sachin_pk@hotmail.email
Pager: 9624 - 285433
Phone: +91 - 80- 3314500
Home page: <A HREF="http://209.67.19.99/~sachin_pk">http://209.67.19.99/~sachin_pk</A>
-------------------------------------------
When everything seems lost,
Remember, future remains .....
*******************************************




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From: prakash <>

Subject: Big Boys of UPRR

Date: 28 Nov 1998 09:30:40 -0500




Hi Jayant,

> I've seen that page and have always dreamt of someday seeing a
> Big Boy in person.

One of the restored Big Boy exists in Los Angeles County Fairgrounds.
When I lived in LA Basin, I did not know of it and now I visit LA Basin
3-4 times a year but could not find time to go there.

Hopefully in near future, I can take a picture of it.

San Jose has a restored working steam from Southern Pacific. About a
year
or two earlier, I had an opportunity to see this loco hauling a CalTrain
to Gilroy over the weekend.

I believe, more than one Big Boys exist in US today. Look at
<A HREF="http://www.uprr.com">http://www.uprr.com</A> and you will find list of all UPRR locos that have
been preserved.

Prakash

From: Vaibhav Galriya <>

Subject: no more mails please

Date: 28 Nov 1998 09:47:52 -0500


Dear friends,
I'm leaving my place for some time. So no more mails from the club for
the timebeing.
Thanks...
Vaibhav

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From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Accident

Date: 28 Nov 1998 10:22:01 -0500


Hello,
Actually, I beg to differ.
On the Delhi-Jammu/Amritsar route,, the line had been electrified upto
Ambala in 1996. Its now electrified upto Ludhiana, I guess.
In fact, I think I'd seen the catenary wire above the wreck in teh color
photograph
that appeared in the local paper Khaleej Times here in Dubai.
The report said that teh Frontier had been diesel hauled. I'm not sure
about
the Sealdah Express.
Had it been electric, it would have been a WAM/4 or something. With no
protection in front, the poor driver and co-driver would have taken all
the
initial impact upon themselves. No wonder they were killed instantly.
Nontheless, its a massive tragedy of epic proportions that should never
occur again.
As avid rail freaks, all we can do is to join in a silent prayer for the
departed souls.
The final toll was 200 0dd, I think. God be with the injured and the
next of
kin.
Best regards.
Shankar



At 12:59 PM 11/28/98 +0530, you wrote:
>This ( New Delhi - Jammu Tawi) is an unelectrified section, these must
>be WDM 2s on both trains from Ludhiana (LDH) or Tughlakabad (TKD)
>sheds. The loco of the Sealdah express appears to be a write off, both
>the drivers of that train were killed, the Frontier loco was not
>involved in the collision and its crew must be okay.
>
>Apurva
>
>Larry Russell wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> Anyone know which locomotives were involved in the accident and
damage
>> estimates?
>> Larry
>
>

From: C.L.Zeni <>

Subject: Re: loading gauges

Date: 28 Nov 1998 14:27:07 -0500


Jayant S wrote:
>
> C.L.Zeni wrote:
> > As Caprotti (of valve gear fame) said when he visited the US in the
> > 1930s and saw our railways, "You don't move trains - you move
houses!"
> I'd like to see Russian trains with their 17+ feet height.

"Double stack" trains here, ie, depressed center well cars loaded with
two shipping containers stacked on top of each other, are 21-22 feet
tall, and the woodchip cars used here in the South are nearly that tall
and 65+ feet long. As woodchips are not dense, it's not excessively
heavy...

> What are the largest loading gauge limits on IR ?
> Once read a fascinating account of what Hitler had planned
> for the future rail network in the Third Reich.
> Apparently the track gauge was to be 3 meters (or thereabouts)
> with rolling stock to match.......just imagine.

The US magazine "Trains" had an article on this proposed railroad some
years ago - yes it was 3 metres gauge...

--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com

<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>

From: prakash <>

Subject: Footplating made easy!

Date: 28 Nov 1998 16:49:14 -0500




Hi Folks,

For those who can visit Portola Valley near San Francisco,
footplating is available "officially".

Look at The Feather River Rail Society's Portola RR Museum's
web page at <A HREF="http://www.oz.net/~samh/frrs/index.html">http://www.oz.net/~samh/frrs/index.html</A>
Don't miss Sam's article about his experience.

I wish I knew about this place when Dheeraj visited this part
of the world.

Prakash

From: prakash <>

Subject: Accident pictures

Date: 28 Nov 1998 16:52:11 -0500




Folks,

The pictures of tragic accident near Khanna can be seen at

<A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide</A>
nt_
knp.html

<A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide</A>
nt.
html

<A HREF="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/19981126/wl/india_train_accide</A>
nt_
7jl.html

Prakash

From: Vdate <>

Subject: Re: The accident some questions

Date: 28 Nov 1998 18:08:29 -0500


Apparently the crew of the Frontier survived. The gatekeeper in the
nearby
gate also might be able to shed the light on the timing. I think some
degree
of redundancy in the warning system would be helpful in preventing
similar
accidents in the future. Radio transmission on several assigned
frequencies,
using Geopositioning satellite, track fault detection and low tech
method e.g.
emergency horns and detonators and flares are some of the candidates.
Experts
please comment.

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: The accident some questions

Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:00:47 -0500


Vdate wrote:
>.........track fault detection and low tech method e.g.
> emergency horns and detonators and flares are some of the candidates.
Experts
> please comment.

Just occured to me: train crews in India do carry flares
(along with detonators) which are meant to be used during
such situations. Any idea if the guard of the derailed
train used them ? Or had he been injured in the
derailment ?

--
Jayant S
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 28 Nov 1998 19:40:09 -0500


> Check out this news item from Times of India about the very intresting
> antique garden railway. I wish my father was as rich, so I could go to
> school in my private train !
> Go to:
> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html">http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html</A>
> Apurva

I wonder what scale it was built to.
From the photo; it seems to look vaguely
like a scaled down LNER Gresley A1 Pacific.
Very similar to somelocos on the Romney, Hythe
and Dymchurch Railway in England.

Anyone cast more light on this ?

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)702534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Sachin P Keshavan <>

Subject: Re: The accident some questions

Date: 28 Nov 1998 20:49:07 -0500


>Vdate wrote:
>.........track fault detection and low tech method e.g.
> emergency horns and detonators and flares are some of the >candidates.

Experts please comment.
>Jayant Wrote:
>Just occured to me: train crews in India do carry flares
>(along with detonators) which are meant to be used during
>such situations. Any idea if the guard of the derailed
>train used them ? Or had he been injured in the
>derailment ?
I think there was no time for the guard to set up the flares and
detonators. I think the detonators have to be placed some distance ahead

of the derailment so that the on coming train has time to stop. I think
3 minutes was the time between, the derailment and arrival of Sealdah
express, so the guard may not have got the time to fix the detonators.

Sachin


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