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From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: The accident some questions

Date: 28 Nov 1998 21:01:18 -0500


> I think there was no time for the guard to set up the flares and
> detonators. I think the detonators have to be placed some distance
ahead
> of the derailment so that the on coming train has time to stop. I
think
> 3 minutes was the time between, the derailment and arrival of Sealdah
> express, so the guard may not have got the time to fix the detonators.
> Sachin

No time for detonators, certainly, but I believe the flares are
provided for such cases precisely, as they take FAR less time
to deploy. They can be taken out of the box and fired
immediatly.

Anyone have more info about flares used by IR ? In India,
where fireworks are set off on any occasion, emergency
flares would need to be unique enough to avoid being
dismissed as just another fstival rocket by train crews.
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)702534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Baneth <>

Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 28 Nov 1998 23:46:45 -0500


The loco is a 10.25 guage UK built model of the 1930s, by a fomous
builder I can look it up in Model Engineer. The young Maharana need
some means of transport between his palaces, in any case in later life
he only played polo. Perhaps Mahvaro Scindia also had such toys but in
2 foot guage that is why he became Minister of Railways.

When I tried to ride this train I was banned as too old. I had to be
under ten. A retired driver and current fireman both squeezed on the
tender to drive the engine. Baroda is my favorite City .

Ron
-----Original Message-----
From: Jayant S <sank@telco.email
To: IR List <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, 29 November 1998 14:51
Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway


>> Check out this news item from Times of India about the very
intresting
>> antique garden railway. I wish my father was as rich, so I could go
to
>> school in my private train !
>> Go to:
>> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html">http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/Baroda/baroda.html</A>
>> Apurva
>
>I wonder what scale it was built to.
>From the photo; it seems to look vaguely
>like a scaled down LNER Gresley A1 Pacific.
>Very similar to somelocos on the Romney, Hythe
>and Dymchurch Railway in England.
>
>Anyone cast more light on this ?
>
>--
>Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
>Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
>TEL 91(212)702534 : FAX 91(212)773191
>--
>

From: Baneth <>

Subject: Re: More Plinthed locos

Date: 29 Nov 1998 00:12:47 -0500


Another plinthed loc is at Baroda outside the Western Railway office
at Paraptnagar probably mispelt but where the 2'6" system runs and
the works. The loco is a type T tramway loco built by Bagnalls of
Stafford misdescibed as German built but with a Bagnall worksplate.
The worked a loacal Tramway and are unusual in that they have outside
Wheels of a 2-8-o arrangement, more detailes are here if anyone wishes
me to find out for them.








-----Original Message-----
From: Harsh Vardhan <champa@del3.email
To: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrejnet.email
Cc: Indian Railway Fan Club Association <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, 15 November 1998 21:47
Subject: Re: More Plinthed locos


>>Yesterday I had been to Bombay Central and saw the Plinthed NG Loco.
>>It is 563K of BB & CI made by Kerr Stuart & Co. at the cost of
Rs.34,423
>>in the year 1929. It ran for 22,02,400Kms and was retired from
Pratap
>>Nagar shed in 1990 and was plinthed in 1991 to commemorate the
Platium
>>Jubilee of Bombay central station.
>
>
>Dear Viraf,
> That's great news again. K 563(2-6-4T) is the
only loco
>of its kind to have worked on the Dabhoi MG network. It is indeed
surprising
>that it was plinthed in 1991 and I have missed it for all these
years !
>Perhaps it is because I normally always board a suburban train from
BCT and
>never come to the main gate where it must me parked.
>
>Regards,
>
>HARSH
>
>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Accident pictures

Date: 29 Nov 1998 01:58:28 -0500


a cautionary note -
News articles on the web are usually removed a few hours later -
by the time I got this and went to look, Yahoo had removed the images.
If it's worth seeing, suggest you save it and post it. (If you've no
place to
post,
email me & I'll do it).

From: Vdate <>

Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 29 Nov 1998 07:09:37 -0500


Beneth wondered if Madhavrao Shinde(Scindia) became railway minister
because
he had a toy train in his childhood. He is probably correct. I do
remember
seeing a PBS special in which they had shown Baroda palace movie of this
train.

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Accident at LDH

Date: 29 Nov 1998 08:08:58 -0500


Doug Cummings wrote:

> Subject: Re: Accident
>
> But which one? There are hundreds of WDM2's

Shankar's mail had put some doubt in my mind about whether the train was
diesel hauled at all. The NDLS - LDH track indeed is electrified, but
Khanna is north of Ludhiana, hence not electrified. My guess is that the
2903 Dn Frontier is hauled by a WCAM 2 of the Valsad shed (this IS the
shed to which the WR WCAMx are homed to ?) till Baroda, then a BRC shed
WAM
4 or a WAPx hauls it till NDLS . From NDLS to ASR the 2903 takes the
unelectrified Meerat - Saharanpur - Ambala Cantt route, a TDK or a LDH
WDM
2 will be the loco in charge.

I cannot say about the other sections of the IR but I am aware of
atleast
two incidents on the Mumbai - Pune 1.5 KV DC section where a train was
stopped by actually switching off the overhead supply, after the section
controller noticed or was informed of an imminent collision. One such
incident was to the 1024 Up Siddheshwar Exp (BTW this is the correct
name
of the train - while the TAAG always refers to this train as Siddeshwari
-
that was the name of a famous singer !) from Solapur to Mumbai. On that
day the last two coaches of a Mumbai bound freighter parted coupling
and
were standing on the main line just after Malavali . This defect was
noted
after the freighter entered the Lonavala yard. The yard master of LNL
then
informed the section controller who ordered the OHE to be switched off
and
the 1024 came to a halt just short of the unlit freight rake. Why the
signals could not stop the the 1024 or why the track circuiting did not
detect vehicles on the track, I do not know. These systems may be
bypassed
in case they are not working properly and the clearance of line is then
given by the 'paper ticket' issued by the station master in charge. This
incident was told to me by the very driver who was reminiscing these
incidents at his retirement party.
Whether an action like this is common on the other electrified sections
of
the IR ? Just thinking what the section controller could have done to
stop
a train after it is in midsection. But what about a diesel hauled train
?
Think low tech and think grossly over designed systems which would keep
working in the face of abuse, neglected maintenance and extreme weather
(think vermin, pilfer proof AND non electrical solution).

Typo from the map in the NR tt, I reproduce the line for your reading
pleasure: " The spellings of station names appearing on this map have
bean
(sic) taken from verious (sic again) sources". So much for correct
spellings !

I am too far away from Ludhiana to get the correct loco numbers but I
just
remembered an incident regarding numbers of rail vehicles involved in an
accident.
Last year I was stuck at Nagpur for a day because there was a derailment
and my train was very very late. To gather more news, I was going
through
the news papers available at the stations. I was pleasantly surprised to
see that the derailment (of two freight wagons at Badnera) was covered
in
great details including two pictures, and a huge text description which
included the type of derailed wagons (1BCX & 1 BFR) their contents
(Bananas !) and their wagon serial numbers. Although the only casualties
were the late running trains, the newspaper saw it fit to give it's
readers the complete details including all the delays of the links due
to
diversions via Bhusawal - Itarsi etc.
On a non railway but relevant subject: Note that there is always an
undercurrent of rivalry between the Pune and the Nagpur dwellers about
which city is the second most important in Maharashtra after the capital
Mumbai. Both cities look down upon the other. I, a loyal Pune citizen
concluded that only small towns print such news which is irrelevant in
bigger cities. Pune will never print such news (although I wish it
would)
but Nagpur had, so Pune must be bigger and more important city !

Sorry Nagpur gang - Pune rules !

Apurva

From: prakash <>

Subject: Flares, Detonators, etc. etc.

Date: 29 Nov 1998 08:55:16 -0500




Hi Folks,

The Guard or Conductor carries flares, detonators and a telephone
handset. The idea is to cover up the rear of train and not the
front. Some of IR rules are based on old concept, drivers are
illiterate but guards are not.

Only two things would have avoided this accident are: Oscillating
& powerful red light and walkie-talkie communication.

Prakash

From: prakash <>

Subject: Accident pictures

Date: 29 Nov 1998 09:06:58 -0500




Anne,

I ma attaching two pictures that were saved yesterday.

One picture has structures that appear like OH structures.

Prakash
(See attached file: capt_india_train_accident_knp.jpg)(See attached
file:
capt_india_train_accident.jpg)

From: prakash <>

Subject: Accident photos

Date: 29 Nov 1998 09:18:21 -0500




Folks,

You can easily look at them by using following steps.

1) URL <A HREF="http://www.yahoo.com">http://www.yahoo.com</A>
2) Click on News
3) Click on Photo Gallery below Top Stories
4) Search using keywords +INDIA +ACCIDENT +KHANNA

Prakash

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: The C&O M-1

Date: 29 Nov 1998 12:01:11 -0500




Jayant S wrote:

> > Jayant S wrote:
> > > > The highest total weight is the C&O M-1 at 1,233,970 lbs.
> > > Just wondering: was this the LOOOOONG yellow
steam-turbine-electric
> > > used by the C&O in the 40s ? The one with endless nos of axles ?
> > I'm not sure - I'm just using the table from the web site.
> > I'll check though - I'm curious about it now.
>
> Just spent an hour hunting for the M-1: it seems to be
> nowhere on the Web. But I think I do have something
> somewhere at home so will mail you tomorrow with correct specs
> (including whether the M-1 was what I think it is) though
> you will probably find it before that.
> The weight stated by you works out to 560 metric tonnes
> which is astounding.
>
>

Found it! It's a turbine, picture at
<A HREF="http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/images/tr_co500a.jpg">http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/images/tr_co500a.jpg</A>

Found it on turbine web page at
<A HREF="http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/turbines.html">http://www.mtp.semi.harris.com/turbines.html</A>

(incidentally - learned a valuable search trick - "M-1" and "C&O" were
useless,
so we found out. I searched on "Jawn Henry" - took me to a site with
info
about both locos.

It was coal-steam-turbine-electric.

And, on the general subject of "biggest engine"

<A HREF="http://193.129.124.3/users/jao.interactive/General/QsAndAs/1998Jan228165">http://193.129.124.3/users/jao.interactive/General/QsAndAs/1998Jan228165</A>
0.htm

including this amazing photo of a Russian 4-14-4

<A HREF="http://pavel.physics.sunysb.edu/RR/photos/landreev.jpg">http://pavel.physics.sunysb.edu/RR/photos/landreev.jpg</A>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 29 Nov 1998 12:28:35 -0500




Vdate@aol.email wrote:

> Beneth wondered if Madhavrao Shinde(Scindia) became railway minister
because
> he had a toy train in his childhood. He is probably correct. I do
remember
> seeing a PBS special in which they had shown Baroda palace movie of
this
> train.

If memory serves, there was a PBS special that showed a silver train,
live
steam,
about G gage, that some such royalty had.

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Accident pictures

Date: 29 Nov 1998 12:40:34 -0500




prakash@us.email wrote:

> Anne,
>
> I ma attaching two pictures that were saved yesterday.
>
> One picture has structures that appear like OH structures.
>
> Prakash
> (See attached file: capt_india_train_accident_knp.jpg)(See attached
file:
> capt_india_train_accident.jpg)

sure looks like overhead - could it be telephone line that somehow
survived?
If so, the catenary wire would have to be a second wire that was
snapped, and
is twisted with the standing one.

From: Doug Cummings <>

Subject: Re: Accident pictures

Date: 29 Nov 1998 12:56:00 -0500




To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998
Subject: Varanasi (DLW) WDM2 diesels

There are some of us who are working really hard to come up with a
comprehensive and complete list of all of the locomotives built by DLW
at
Varanasi.

What we need are builders plate spottings for the (broad gauge) WDM2,
WDM2C,
WDP1 classes of locomotives that are in the I-3389 group of locomotives
(I-3389 is the Alco order number).

On the side of most of these locomotives should be two plates on the
frame
below the cab, On one side that plate says "Indian Railways, Diesel
Locomotive Works, Varanasi (U.P.) India" and below that is stamped the
works
number, usually "I-3389-" followed by other numbers like "03-1784" and
to
the right of that in stamped the date the locomotive was built. On the
other
side of the locomotive this plate is in Hindi. (for example, the serial
I-3389-03-1784 dated February 1990 is the actual spotting from the plate
on
WDM2 number 16196).

What we urgently need are as many of the works numbers and dates from
these
plates as possible, and (of course) the respective road number(s). Most
of
these locomotives are on Indian Railways but there are also a hundred or
so
that were built for National Thermal Power and other non-I.R. customers.

This group of locomotives (I-3389) are those that are giving us the most
problems.

A great many thanks to all of you who can help. Any and all assistance
is
greatly appreciated.

Doug Cummings
email: ihp@iStar.email

From: Peter Mosse <>

Subject: Hitler's 3m gauge railroad (was loading gauges)

Date: 29 Nov 1998 13:28:41 -0500


> > Once read a fascinating account of what Hitler had planned
> > for the future rail network in the Third Reich.
> > Apparently the track gauge was to be 3 meters (or thereabouts)
> > with rolling stock to match.......just imagine.
>
> The US magazine "Trains" had an article on this proposed railroad some
> years ago - yes it was 3 metres gauge...
>
============

A book called 'Broader than Broad' has just been published about
Hitler's
3m gauge railroad project / fantasy. 34 pages of text with sketches,
maps
and diagrams. The publisher is Paul Catchpole Ltd, 47 Glenwood Road,
Kings
Norton, Birmingham B38 8HE, England. MasterCard / Visa accepted.
Unfortunately I don't have the price, but it's probably around 10 pounds
plus postage.

Peter Mosse

From: prakash <>

Subject: Details of tragic accident

Date: 29 Nov 1998 13:54:15 -0500




The accident occurred at about 0315 hours IST when the Calcutta-
bound 3152-down Jammu Tawi-Sealdah Express rammed into 10 derailed
coaches of the Amritsar-bound 2903-up Frontier Mail (recently
renamed the Golden Temple Express).

Ten coaches of the Frontier Mail got decoupled from the train and
derailed, six of them falling onto a parallel track where they
were hit by the oncoming Sealdah Express even as passengers were
alighting from the other four coaches.

Northern Railway General Manager V K Mehta said there was "a gap
of just one minute" between the Frontier Mail coaches getting
derailed and the Sealdah Express ramming into them.

Driver Subhash Chander and co-driver Sewa Ram Murti of the Sealdah
Express were among those killed.

The accident occurred on the electrified track in Ambala
division, but both trains were being hauled by diesel engines.

Besides the engine of the express, which was buried under three
coaches of the mail, seven coaches of the Calcutta bound train an
air-conditioned coach (number 1314), two sleeper coaches (7646
and 4179), two ordinary coaches (9506 and 9247), and a brake van
(3327) -- were damaged.

The second-class coaches of the Frontier Mail damaged in the
accident were 95303, 95231 and 95221. The other seven derailed
coaches also suffered varying damage.

The remaining nine coaches of the Frontier Mail and its engine,
however, traveled safely for about 3 km before its drivers Ashwini
Kumar and Satbir brought the train to a halt.

They claimed to have exchanged signals with the driver and co-
driver of the Sealdah Express before they heard the thundering
crash.

Ten of the dead, apart from the Sealdah Express driver and co-
driver, have been identified so far. They are: Sindhu (45),
Madhukarrao Pathak (62), his wife Durga (56), Shanta (60), Haji
Ghayasuddin (55), Dasarath (30), Manju Sharma (32), Nirpal Singh
(24), Raghubir Singh Teha (43), and Havaldar Kishore Bahadur
Thapa, no 13748013, of the Jammu and Kashmir Rifles.
==============

<A HREF="http://209.194.80.218/news/1998/nov/26train.htm">http://209.194.80.218/news/1998/nov/26train.htm</A>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Hitler's 3m gauge railroad (was loading gauges)

Date: 29 Nov 1998 13:54:28 -0500


>
> A book called 'Broader than Broad' has just been published about
Hitler's
> 3m gauge railroad project / fantasy. 34 pages of text with sketches,
maps
> and diagrams. The publisher is Paul Catchpole Ltd, 47 Glenwood Road,
Kings
> Norton, Birmingham B38 8HE, England. MasterCard / Visa accepted.
> Unfortunately I don't have the price, but it's probably around 10
pounds
> plus postage.
>
> Peter Mosse

So, how big should a RR be? Is there some engineering wisdom out there
about how to pick a railway gage?

From: Sankaran Kumar <>

Subject: Falaknuma Express

Date: 29 Nov 1998 18:01:27 -0500





Vijay:

I do stand corrected. The Falaknuma is superfast according to the SR
Aug 98 TT. However, I remember looking at an older TAAG in which it had

lost SF status. Did the Falaknuma lose SF status and gain it back?

Kumar

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From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Footplating made easy!

Date: 29 Nov 1998 18:35:03 -0500


>
> For those who can visit Portola Valley near San Francisco,
> footplating is available "officially".

Even in Switzerland, i have seen ads in Swiss Railway Mags. But then you
pay through your nose.

Regards

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Baroda/Vadodara garden railway

Date: 29 Nov 1998 19:06:56 -0500


> Beneth wondered if Madhavrao Shinde(Scindia) became railway minister
because
> he had a toy train in his childhood. He is probably correct. I do
remember
> seeing a PBS special in which they had shown Baroda palace movie of
this
> train.
Gwalior had (still has ?) a 2ft gauge railway under operation.
Saw a few pictures: including one of a 2-8-2 loco: rather
large for such a small gauge.


--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)702534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Accident

Date: 30 Nov 1998 02:49:43 -0500



>Actually, I beg to differ.
>On the Delhi-Jammu/Amritsar route,, the line had been electrified upto
>Ambala in 1996. Its now electrified upto Ludhiana, I guess.
>In fact, I think I'd seen the catenary wire above the wreck in teh
color
>photograph
>that appeared in the local paper Khaleej Times here in Dubai.


This is correct. DLI - LDH is electrified for over a year now. However
all
goods trains and only long distance trains travelling to Delhi via
Panipat
are on electric power. As both of the unfortunate trains take Saharanpur
route from Ambala Cantt.(which is also under electrification) they are
on
LDH/MGS/TKD WDM 2s. I recently spotted the Frontier on a WDM 2C 16002 of
TKD.

Just wondering why everyone(including the authorities) chooses to call
it
Frontier now when they had renamed it `Golden Temple Mail' with much
fanfare
recently??!

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