IRFCA Mailing List Archive
Messages 7701 - 7720
From: Julian Rainbow <>
Subject: Re: Steam Special
Date: 19 Aug 1999 10:02:33 -0500
Viraf,
first thought on seeing this how about running the special on a Sunday
when
you have less suburban traffic to worry about. Then if possible, run
several trips in the day
Advance publicity is essential, if this goes ahead let me know soonest
and I
will inform UK magazines/likely interested parties, need reply on this
before say 08/09/99. At the moment I am due to fly out to Angola on
13/09/99.
Julian
-----Original Message-----
From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrej.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: 19 August 1999 09:44
Subject: Steam Special
>
>Hello gang,
>
>Yesterday evening I was with the Western Railway's CPRO Mr. Vinod
Asthana.
>I had been there to get a photography permission for my forthcoming
trip
>to Wankaner/Morbi this month end.
>
>As we sat talking Mr.Asthana showed me his plan to celebrate the
centenary
>of the Western Railway Hq. building at Churchgate. He has planed a
Railway
>Exhibition at Cross Maidan - Churchgate end from 3rd. to 19th. December
>this year. Unfortunately from the plan I could see a very small place
>allotted to the railway stall and the rest to the corporates,
refreshments
>and joy rides. The exhibition will also have a mini train for the
children
>with a live steam loco from CLW(?).
>
>A better & fit way to celebrate the centenary would be to have a "STEAM
>SPECIAL" chugging out of Churchgate. So I suggested that we could have
one
>of the restored WP from the Charbaugh Shed-Lucknow and run a steam
special
>till Valsad. The CPRO was very enthusiastic but his main worry seems to
be
>what will the railway benefit from it. He wants the trip to be
sponsored.
>
>Here are some of my suggestions:
>
>1. That the train should depart from Churchgate & not from Virar as
>suggested by the CPRO. Mr. Asthana is concerned that with a steam train
>departing Churchgate & all the media attention & crowds it will
>attract will throw the suburban traffic out of gear. We could comprise
>with Bombay Central or Bandra Terminus.
>
>2. That the train should have either ordinary second class or chair car
>without bars on the windows as against a complete a/c train. As Sarosh
>says a/c is for "The Baboos". Mr. Asthana agreed that barless windows
can
>be arranged.
>
>3. That there should be atleast a run past somewhere enroute.
>
>4. That the enthusiasts be given turns to footplate.
>
>5. That the return should also be steam hauled either by a different
loco
>or the same loco running tender first (I doubt if Valsad still has a
TT).
>To which the CPRO doesn't agree. He says that the loco on arriving at
>Valsad will be sent back to it's home shed. All the passengers will be
>accomodated in the regular Bombay bound trains.
>
>Further he added that a lavish buffet can be arranged in WR's guest
>house at Teethal (a seaside resort 3kms from Valsad) where the
passengers
>can refresh themselves. Refreshments also will be served onboard. Also
can
>be arranged is a live band on whose tune the train will depart.
>
>Foreign tour operators MOST WELCOME.
>
>Friends, may I have your opinion on this so that I can discuss it
further
>with the CPRO.
>
>Harsh, can FNRM & NRM be of any help regarding this?
>
>Regards
>
>Viraf
>
>==========================
>Viraf Mulla
>C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
>Borivali (West)
>Mumbai 400103
>Tel: +91-22-8954510
>E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
>==========================
>
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Smoke from the electrics
Date: 19 Aug 1999 10:17:02 -0500
There was a time when the exhauster of WCM1, 2 and 5 were using some
sort of inferior
oil. This caused clouds of white smoke (smelling hot) from the non
working side hood
(usually the trailing hood). I guess the YAM 1 also suffers from the
same problem.
The new DC locos as well as the remaining WCM class power does not have
this problem
today.
Apurva
"S.Shankar" wrote:
> Hello Zeni,
> Yes, I was referring to the GGs alright, but I was not aware of their
> smoking tendencies.
> The only smoking electric I have seen so far is the YAM/1 mg ac
> electric, which sometimes used let out small whiffs of white smoke
from
> near the bogies. WOnder why.
> Anyway, thanks for a wonderful piece of info. DO you happen to have a
> pic of a smoking GG by any chance?
>
> Cheers.
>
> Shankar
>
> C. Zeni wrote:
> >
> > Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> > >
> > > > ANOTHER VERY BIZZARE ONE IS AGAIN IN THE US. IT LOOKS LIKE A
STREAMLIMED
> > > > STEAM ENGINE (CORONATION SCOT, TO BE PRECISE), WITH THE SAME
STREAMLINED
> > > > BOILER IN THE FRONT AS WELL AS ON THE REAR. SAME TINY WINDSHIELD
ON
> > > > EITHER SIDE. LOOKOUT IS ALONG THE HOOD ON EITHER SIDE, THE CAB
IS
> > > > SITUATED MID WAY.
> > >
> > > I think you are talking about the much loved GG 1 or CG 1 electric
power.
> >
> > Apurva, he's likely a photo of a GG-1 spewing black smoke...although
> > using electricity for propulsion, the GG-1s (all 139 of them) atill
had
> > oil-fired steam generator boilers to produce steam to heat the
train.
> > I've seen a number of photos of GG-1s belching huge sooty black
clouds.
> > --
> > Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
> > <A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Questions for the DLW was Re: Turntable fears for WDG4
Date: 19 Aug 1999 10:24:36 -0500
Warm welcome to Shubhranshu,
I hope more and more railway officials join the IRFCA. You could also
explain why the WDG 2 has a wheel type power controller and why the
seating position has been reversed.
Apurva
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Pakistan Railways
Date: 19 Aug 1999 12:02:50 -0500
Hello Harsh,Apurva and others,
Check out my small webpage on Pakistan's railways.
<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm">http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm</A>
I'h having trouble with one of the images: I have been working at it
since 1500 hrs: its now nearly 0000 hrs, but that goddam thing still
refuses to upload.
Tripod keeps saying upload successful. Maybe I have exceeded my 11 mb.
Anyway, barring that one image, everything else seems to be ticking in
an orderly fashion.
Cheers.
Shankar
From: Shanku Niyogi <>
Subject: Re: Dual Cab Diesels
Date: 19 Aug 1999 12:23:32 -0500
For some interesting info off the web on the cab issue, what steam
generators in locomotives had to do with it, and why American designs
look
the way they do, check out
<A HREF="http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/en_info.htm#looks">http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/en_info.htm#looks</A>
Some other interesting anecdotes about the GG-1 from the web, at the
site of
Pierce Haviland, a former GG-1 engineer, at
<A HREF="http://www.quuxuum.org/~haviland/pierce.html:">http://www.quuxuum.org/~haviland/pierce.html:</A>
"...The GG-1 rarely broke down as there were few things that could go
wrong.
A main circuit breaker would trip when excessive power was used. It was
simple to reset. There were two water tanks located on either end of the
engine. Steam generators provided heat to the train. When the water tank
near the steam generator ran low, the fireman had to transfer water from
the
other tank. To do this, you had to use steam to create a vacuum that
would
draw the water. Too much steam, or too little, would negate the siphon.
The
only way to tell if water was being transferred was to feel the pipe on
the
other side of the steam valve. When it became cool, you knew that the
water
was filling the pipe."
"...One of the bad things about the GG-1 was the poor visibility for the
engineer due to the long nose extending beyond the cab. There were two
cabs
on the engine, one for each direction of travel. One night I was leaving
Penn Station with a young brakeman serving as my fireman. As I left the
platform with a restricting signal, I could not see the next signal. I
asked
the fireman, "what's the next signal?" He replied, "which one is ours?"
I
stopped the train and went over to look at the signal. It's a good thing
I
did, as a Long Island Rail Road MU train pulled right in front of the
engine."
-----Original Message-----
From: S.Shankar [mailto:shankie@emirates.email
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 7:13 AM
To: clzeni@mindspring.email
Cc: Apurva Bahadur; IR List
Subject: Re: Dual Cab Diesels
Hello Zeni,
Yes, I was referring to the GGs alright, but I was not aware of their
smoking tendencies.
The only smoking electric I have seen so far is the YAM/1 mg ac
electric, which sometimes used let out small whiffs of white smoke from
near the bogies. WOnder why.
Anyway, thanks for a wonderful piece of info. DO you happen to have a
pic of a smoking GG by any chance?
Cheers.
Shankar
C. Zeni wrote:
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> >
> > > ANOTHER VERY BIZZARE ONE IS AGAIN IN THE US. IT LOOKS LIKE A
STREAMLIMED
> > > STEAM ENGINE (CORONATION SCOT, TO BE PRECISE), WITH THE SAME
STREAMLINED
> > > BOILER IN THE FRONT AS WELL AS ON THE REAR. SAME TINY WINDSHIELD
ON
> > > EITHER SIDE. LOOKOUT IS ALONG THE HOOD ON EITHER SIDE, THE CAB IS
> > > SITUATED MID WAY.
> >
> > I think you are talking about the much loved GG 1 or CG 1 electric
power.
>
> Apurva, he's likely a photo of a GG-1 spewing black smoke...although
> using electricity for propulsion, the GG-1s (all 139 of them) atill
had
> oil-fired steam generator boilers to produce steam to heat the train.
> I've seen a number of photos of GG-1s belching huge sooty black
clouds.
> --
> Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
> <A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: DLW news in the TOI
Date: 19 Aug 1999 13:10:48 -0500
From: T.H.Sanyal. <>
Subject: Prejudice in IRFCA
Date: 19 Aug 1999 13:52:00 -0500
Poras wrote:
>>because some unthoughtful Babu Moshais were creating a hungama over
tea
************
Harsh wrote:
>The Babu Moshais are omnipresent on IR(and every bit of land) during
Puja
************
Thanks to Harsh and Poras for establishing precedents that shows
prejudice against Bengalis to be a fit subject matter for discussion
in IRFCA.
ths.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Pakistan Railways
Date: 19 Aug 1999 18:49:06 -0500
Great page Shankar. Thank god for your scarpbook !
Apurva
"S.Shankar" wrote:
> Hello Harsh,Apurva and others,
> Check out my small webpage on Pakistan's railways.
>
> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm">http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm</A>
>
> I'h having trouble with one of the images: I have been working at it
> since 1500 hrs: its now nearly 0000 hrs, but that goddam thing still
> refuses to upload.
>
> Tripod keeps saying upload successful. Maybe I have exceeded my 11 mb.
>
> Anyway, barring that one image, everything else seems to be ticking in
> an orderly fashion.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Shankar
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Pakistan Railways
Date: 19 Aug 1999 19:22:42 -0500
Have you noticed a hinged plate that covers the smokestack (when not in
use ?) in the
steam powers of the PR? I guess it is required when the loco is stabled
outdoors. Why
did the IR lack this feature ? I have seen this feature on Russian and
South Asian
steam locos also.
Apurva
"S.Shankar" wrote:
> Hello Harsh,Apurva and others,
> Check out my small webpage on Pakistan's railways.
>
> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm">http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm</A>
>
> I'h having trouble with one of the images: I have been working at it
> since 1500 hrs: its now nearly 0000 hrs, but that goddam thing still
> refuses to upload.
>
> Tripod keeps saying upload successful. Maybe I have exceeded my 11 mb.
>
> Anyway, barring that one image, everything else seems to be ticking in
> an orderly fashion.
>
> Cheers.
>
> Shankar
From: Mike Brooker <>
Subject: Re: Pakistan Railways
Date: 19 Aug 1999 20:34:54 -0500
>Check out my small webpage on Pakistan's railways.
>
><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm">http://members.tripod.com/shankaronline/neighbors.htm</A>
>
>I'h having trouble with one of the images: I have been working at it
>since 1500 hrs: its now nearly 0000 hrs, but that goddam thing still
>refuses to upload.
>
>Tripod keeps saying upload successful. Maybe I have exceeded my 11 mb.
Nice site..I had no problem viewing the images. How about a site on
Bangladeshi railways??
How much does the current edition of "Trains at A Glance" sell for? In
1995
I paid $5.00 U.S. for a copy. An inflated price to fleece westerners,
as is
the cost of the Indrail pass.
********************************************************************
Mike Brooker
99 Wychcrest Ave.,
Toronto, ON M6G 3X8
CANADA
(416) 536-7406
********************************************************************
From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>
Subject: Re: TAG
Date: 19 Aug 1999 21:26:21 -0500
>
> How much does the current edition of "Trains at A Glance" sell for?
In 1995
> I paid $5.00 U.S. for a copy. An inflated price to fleece westerners,
as is
> the cost of the Indrail pass.
Last week I bought one for Rs.25/-.
Viraf
==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================
From: HVC <>
Subject: Re: Turntable fears for WDG4
Date: 19 Aug 1999 23:05:13 -0500
Thank you for the detailed info. Could you please clarify still why this
design of cab was choosen over `cab at both ends'. Iam sure that two cab
driver viewpoint is still the best and now that we have our in-house
design
and experience of the same with the WDP2s.
Did it have a big price implication tag from GM?
Harsh
P.S. It is clear that the WDG4s will be mostly on freight haul duties
where
they will never exceed 75 Kmph so running long hood should not be much
of a
problem actually.
Also these may be frequently MUed also so both ends can be short hood
leading there.
Still I would like to know why a universal cab design was preferred over
two
cab.
-----Original Message-----
From: shubh@altavista.email <shubh@altavista.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:48 AM
Subject: Turntable fears for WDG4
>There is a widespread concern about the WDG4 not being able to do long
hood
leading runs. This is totally unfounded.
>
>It is true that the long hood is longer than other locos in service,
but it
has been designed to be a bidirectional loco. Sine the basic design was
of a
mono cab loco, therefore the unsightly view end at the long hood end.
>
>Please note the sideways extension of the windows in the cab. These
were
added to enable the assistant driver to have a better view of the signal
and
the track.
>
>In a departure from existing locomotive cab layouts, the driver in the
WDG4
sits on the left side (the signal side) of the cab. Hence he has a clear
view of the signal, even without the extension windows (EMD calls them
bay
windows). The bay windows are meant for the assistant driver only. It is
also better than the long hood of WDM2's, since the driver in the older
locos sit on the right side of the cab. The view of the signal in this
case
is actually as good as that in the short hood leading runs.
>
>
>Shubhranshu
>Dy Chief Project Manager
>GM Loco Project
>Diesel Locomotive Works
>Varanasi, INDIA.
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Get your free email from AltaVista at <A HREF="http://altavista.iname.com">http://altavista.iname.com</A>
>
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: IR stamps
Date: 20 Aug 1999 00:11:15 -0500
Hello,
I know this has been through this forum before, but just check out this
interesting url about IR stamps:
<A HREF="http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~venus/se_in.html">http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~venus/se_in.html</A>
Cheers.
Shankar
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: RCF website
Date: 20 Aug 1999 00:35:28 -0500
Hello,
Check out the website of the Rail Coach Factory:
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Node/2285/index.html">http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Node/2285/index.html</A>
If you want to see a handful of tame images, click on the CLICK HERE
button below WHATS NEW.
All other links only yield statistics: no graphics at all.
Cheers.
Shankar
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Israel
Date: 20 Aug 1999 00:45:56 -0500
Hello,
Now that we are onto this thread on rare ones, check out this site about
railways in Israel:
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/7250/">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/7250/</A>
Cheers.
Shankar
From: John Lacey <>
Subject: Re: Pakistan Railways
Date: 20 Aug 1999 01:18:50 -0500
Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Have you noticed a hinged plate that covers the smokestack (when not
in use ?) in the
> steam powers of the PR? I guess it is required when the loco is
stabled outdoors. Why
> did the IR lack this feature ? I have seen this feature on Russian and
South Asian
> steam locos also.
>
> Apurva
These plates were often fitted to oil-fired locos.
>From memory, I think the reason was to keep rain water out when locos
were stabled outside, but more seriously they were designed to protect
the tubes and flues from sudden cooling which was a cause of greater
corrosion in oil fired rather than coal fired locos.
The plates also played some part ( I can't remember what) in the
lighting up process for at some stage in the procedure the cover was to
be removed from the chimney.
I saw quite a number of oil fired locos ( all? fitted with the covers)
in Java, both stored and in use, but cannot recall ever seeing one with
its chimney plate in the " closed " position!
From: Dr. K.J. Walker <>
Subject: Re: DLW news in the TOI
Date: 20 Aug 1999 02:10:40 -0500
Dear Anand,
The locos you remember are probably the first diesel-electric
shunters
India had. The BBCI bought a batch during the late 1930s; except for
track
gauge, they were nearly identical to the earliest design used by the LMS
in
Britain, with inside bearings and a jackshaft drive. (All later UK d-e
shunters had outside frames with direct drive and rod-coupled axles --
all
the UK railways bought them, BR built hundreds as the 08 class, there
were
lots in Holland, and Victoria had a small class of them -- the Fiesels).
All these designs were enormously successful. Each engine
normally
replaced about three steam tank engines, and could be worked for a
fortnight
straight before being stopped for preventive maintenance, whereas the
stream
engines generally had to be stopped every 2-3 days and sometimes every
24
hours. (It depends on water treatment, etc.)
Apart from the move away from jackshaft drive, the only other
real
change was a gradual increase in horsepower; most of the early ones were
350hp, but that rose to 500-600hp as standard. BR are still operating
some
08s.
I hope that helps
Cheers
Ken Walker
-----Original Message-----
From: ranand@us.email <ranand@us.email
To: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: 19 August 1999 1:33
Subject: Re: DLW news in the TOI
>Apurva writes:
>
>>This is based on the finding that the car is geared
>>differently for forward and
>>reverse operation. But a shunting loco will necessarily have
>>equal gearing in any
>>direction. Did the IR have any diesel mechanical shunters ?
>
>I studied in St Marys school in Mazgaon in Bombay from 1970 to 1975.
The
great
>thing about this chool was that it had a huge playground that
overlooked
the
>CR mainline as well as the train maintenance yard. The rakes of the
>Bombay Howrah Mail and other long distance trains would be brought
there
for
>cleaning and refilling of water.
>
>Incidentally, one of Vijay's photos shows the school yard from the
other
side
>of the tracks.
>
>Immediately next to the school fence were four lines where 4 lines
where
goods
>trains
>were parked. I remember that there were 0-6-0 diesel shunter
locomotives
that
>used
>to pull these trains back and forth. These shunters had side rods like
the
WDS4
>but they
>look like the standard British shunter with the main drive axle on one
side
>rather than between
>the wheels like the WDS4. I think these locos were diesel mechanical
but I
am
>not sure.
>Can anyone confirm even the existance of these engines?
>
>Anand
>
>Internet: anand@watson.email
>External tel: (914) 784 7054
>Notes: Rangachari Anand/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
>Tie-line: 863 7054
>
>
>
From: Anand Krishnan <>
Subject: Re: Turntable fears for WDG4
Date: 20 Aug 1999 02:21:19 -0500
Hi all,
Very Warm welcome to Mr.Shubranshu. Its an honour for us rail
fanatics to have a person of your calibre. Our best wishes to you sir.
Its
been a while that this discussion of TT for WDG4s was on and the pros
and
cons of single cab/unidirectional locos were being discussed, and
Mr.Shubranshu has thrown light on this. I only feel that he will be
having a
lot of questions been asked in this regard.
How do we guage the fuel efficiency of a locomotive ? Now that WDG4 is
expected to be atleast 15% more fuel efficient than the existing
WDM/WDG.
WIll not a more powerful loco like WDG4 need a proportionate amount of
fuel.
There was a similar discussion previously also in the list regarding
this
where Apurva, Raymond and others gave their ever valuable inputs. I
guess
Mr.Shubranshu is the most appropriate person now to answer it now, since
he
is a part of our 'Gang' and has hands on experience in dealing with
these
new beasts of IR. One more question is the amount of technology that has
gone into this, especially those m/p controlled gadgets etc. Though the
GTMAC site provides us all these details, what sort of training will our
drivers have to take to handle this loco since this is very advanced. I
hear
that a 5-1/2 Crore training facility is coming up at UBL for this
purpose.
Kind regards,
Anand
>From: shubh@altavista.email
>To: irfca@cs.email
>Subject: Turntable fears for WDG4
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
>
>There is a widespread concern about the WDG4 not being able to do long
hood
>leading runs. This is totally unfounded.
>
>It is true that the long hood is longer than other locos in service,
but it
>has been designed to be a bidirectional loco. Sine the basic design was
of
>a mono cab loco, therefore the unsightly view end at the long hood end.
>
>Please note the sideways extension of the windows in the cab. These
were
>added to enable the assistant driver to have a better view of the
signal
>and the track.
>
>In a departure from existing locomotive cab layouts, the driver in the
WDG4
>sits on the left side (the signal side) of the cab. Hence he has a
clear
>view of the signal, even without the extension windows (EMD calls them
bay
>windows). The bay windows are meant for the assistant driver only. It
is
>also better than the long hood of WDM2's, since the driver in the older
>locos sit on the right side of the cab. The view of the signal in this
case
>is actually as good as that in the short hood leading runs.
>
>
>Shubhranshu
>Dy Chief Project Manager
>GM Loco Project
>Diesel Locomotive Works
>Varanasi, INDIA.
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Get your free email from AltaVista at <A HREF="http://altavista.iname.com">http://altavista.iname.com</A>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Garratt
Date: 20 Aug 1999 03:27:00 -0500
Hello,
For all ye diehards, (me included!)
Just stumbled across this list of engines produced by Garratt.
The ng DHR one and the mg Assam-Bengal one are mentioned here. I didnot
scroll enough to spot the bg BNR beasts though.
Take a look at:
<A HREF="http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bp.html">http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bp.html</A>
No pics, unfortunately.
Cheers.
Shankar
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Pakistan Railways
Date: 20 Aug 1999 03:57:24 -0500
Hello,
To continue my Pakistan series, here is what I found at Larry Russel's
website, which show Paki diesels:
<A HREF="http://EMDExport.Railfan.net/asia/pakistan.html">http://EMDExport.Railfan.net/asia/pakistan.html</A>
I am playing safe and forwarding the link only. I did not save the
images and graft them into my page as I did not want Larry flying into a
tizzy at me for pinching pictures from his website!!!
This will give a better idea of modern rail operations in Pak. My pics
showed the glory of steam only. I wonder whether so many steamers are
still around in Pak, though.
Cheers!
Shankar