IRFCA Mailing List Archive
Messages 7041 - 7060
From: Jishnu Mukerji <>
Subject: Re: Greetings to our American friends
Date: 09 Jul 1999 09:49:54 -0500
S Pai wrote:
>
> Hello, Jishnu,
>
> > There was a report that Metro-North
> > actually slapped a 60mph restriction between New York and New Haven.
>
> Interesting. I suppose a big part of the problem is the fact that
> between the cold winters and the hot summers there's a huge range of
> temperatures for which the rails and catenaries, etc., have to be
> designed. In addition to the sagging of catenaries in the case of
> non-constant-tension OHE systems as you pointed out, is there also any
> kind of effect due to changes in mechanical properties of the catenary
> over the temperatures it is exposed to?
I am not aware of any.
> There's usually a critical
> speed for the pantograph brushing past on the surface of the catenary
> beyond which the stresses of the induced shock wave will exceed the
> mechanical strength of the cable. Does this critical speed change
much
> with temperature?
The critical speed changes mostly with the tension. The general rule is
that the speed of transverse waves in the catenary must be greater than
the speed of the train, otherwise pantographs face the equivalent of a
sonic boom on the wire. In constant tension catenaries, the tension in
the catenary, which is the deteminant of the speed of mechanical waves,
is determined by the amount of tensioning weight that is rpesent at the
ends of each catenary section. That is why you ehar of increasing
tension in the catenary before extreme high speed trials are attempted,
like the 500+kmph TGV test between Courtalain and St. Pierre-des-Corpes
on the LGV Atlantique.
Of course in non constant tension catenary, rise in temparature cause
expansion of the catenary leading to reduction in tension and hence
reduction in the critical speed, and hence the need for speed limits.
> (I'm guessing it might go down with temperature...)
> What happens with really high-speed trains (TGV style, or the proposed
> Acela in the US) -- do they have to install new catenaries to get over
> this problem of a critical speed?
All LGVs on which TGVs run at high speed have constant tension
catenaries, and they are tensioned to the appropriate extent to keep the
critical speed way above the actual track speed of the train.
As for Acela, the new electrification between New Haven and Boston is
constant tension and it will be maintained at a tension that would allow
safe running at 155mph. South of New Haven, between New Haven and New
Rochelle, NY DOT has already converted the part that is in New York to
constant tension, and Conn DOT is in the process of converting their
part to constant tension over the next couple of years. But in this
portion it is not all that critical because speed limits will be 100mph
or less due to curves.
South of New York it is all non-constant tension and for now speed will
be limited to 135mph. Over a period of time, eventually, constant
tension catenary will be put in place in sections where the track could
permit higher speeds, e.g. Metuchen (CP Lincoln) to Trenton (CP Fair),
and several sections in Delaware and Maryland. As they get placed in
service speeds will be raised to 155mph in those sections.
Even with the 135mph limit, the tilt capability of Acela Express sets
will make it possible to schedule a few express trains with limited stop
to cover the distance in 2hrs and 30min.
> Different tensions, different
> materials, different cross-section, different construction, shorter
> sections?
Don't know all the details of how all this interacts, but I am sure they
all have an effect.
> Are there instances in India in the summer of rails kinking or
buckling
> in the heat and disrupting train services? I don't recall hearing of
> such problems, at least not recently. What are the temperature
> tolerances of IR track? Do they simply allow for really large
expansion
> movements at the joints?
I don't know what the prevelent practices on IR are these days.
More generally, apparently the trick to reduce the chance of getting
rail kinks is to anchor the tracks solidly forcing the rails to covnert
their attempts at lngitudinal expansion into lateral expansion. This is
not a fully well understood phenomenon from what I have heard.
Apparently heavy concrete sleepers act as very good track anchors, and
that is why it is realtively uncommon to get rail kinks in tracks built
on a well tended track bed using heavy concrete sleepers, at a
relatively high density, for example as found on the North East Corridor
line, or on all the LGVs in France and Belgium. I have never seen a so
called "expansion joint" on any of these multi-km long CWR sections.
>
> --Satish
>
> (By the way, it appears that the new electrification north of New
Haven
> all the way to Boston has constant-tension catenaries?)
Yes they are. And there is a 2 mile test section of constant section
catenary in place on track 3 between Princeton Jct and Hamilton Twp
stations. The design of this test section is similar to what is used in
the UK on the East Coast Main Line. BTW, Hamilton Twp is the new
NJTransit station between Princeton Jct. and Trenton.
Jishnu.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: DLW's website
Date: 10 Jul 1999 01:30:05 -0500
Have a look at DLW's website. Have look and get back for a
discussion.
<A HREF="http://www.dlwindia.com/">http://www.dlwindia.com/</A>
Apurva
From: Vdate <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 10 Jul 1999 08:04:40 -0500
Interesting reading and listening. Would one of the North American
members
of IRFCA tell me what the equivalent numbers and identification tags
might be
on the locos of Amtrak, SF? I would then go and take a look.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 10 Jul 1999 11:37:16 -0500
I had a hurried look, it seems that the DLW is going all out to
manufacture WDG 2s
rather than ordinary WDM 2s. The list of non railway users like power
stations, steel
yards etc are listed on this site.
Apurva
Vdate@aol.email wrote:
> Interesting reading and listening. Would one of the North American
members
> of IRFCA tell me what the equivalent numbers and identification tags
might be
> on the locos of Amtrak, SF? I would then go and take a look.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: WP pictures webpage
Date: 10 Jul 1999 11:41:36 -0500
Gang !
Check out some WP pics from Daund shed.
Have a look and get back with your comments. Go to:
<A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~ApuB/index.htm">http://members.tripod.com/~ApuB/index.htm</A>
and click on the WP pics links at the bottom.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Which trains are these ?
Date: 10 Jul 1999 13:46:25 -0500
Gang !
I hope you have gone through my WDM 2 links page. I have another links
page from 1993.
It lists trains such as 2103/2104, 2637/2638 (mentioned as Raj. express
- this is
supposed to be ex Pune !!), 2731/2732 and 2603/2604. The first is the
newly started
Kurla Bangalore Express (biweekly then ?), the current number is
1013/14. Can any
timetable worm identify these trains from 1993?
These trains may be not touching Pune but working the Solapur - Daund -
Manmad
section.
This vintage WDM 2 links page would be up soon.
Apurva
From: C.L.Zeni <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 10 Jul 1999 14:51:57 -0500
Vdate@aol.email wrote:
>
> Interesting reading and listening. Would one of the North American
members
> of IRFCA tell me what the equivalent numbers and identification tags
might be
> on the locos of Amtrak, SF? I would then go and take a look.
I'm not certain I understand your question - could you clarify what you
mean by numbers and identification tags?
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
Society for Preservation Of Southern Culture
Our motto: Y'all say hey to your mama 'n' them, hear?
From: Jayant S <>
Subject: Re: WP Pics
Date: 10 Jul 1999 22:33:34 -0500
Hi Apurva:
Nice work again ! There is
nothing like big steam on broad gauge.
Your site has become a valuable
documentation of what once was.
--
Jayant S
--
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: WP Pics
Date: 10 Jul 1999 23:43:25 -0500
Thanks Jayant,
I am so amazed at the sheer size of the beast. This really is the
ultimate
developement of the steam loco in India. Size does matter.
Jayant S wrote:
> Hi Apurva:
>
> Nice work again ! There is
> nothing like big steam on broad gauge.
> Your site has become a valuable
> documentation of what once was.
>
> --
> Jayant S
> --
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 11 Jul 1999 03:06:49 -0500
Hello,
What Vdate probably means is this>>
All the engines built by the DLW are apparently adaptations of some old
US design.
He wants to know which US designs the DLW builds are adapted from, so
that he can go and take a look see at the original.
I don't know about the others, but the WDM/2 is supposed to be an
adaptation of GM's Century Series. I shall post the exact model number
later today.
Best regards.
Shankar
C.L.Zeni wrote:
>
> Vdate@aol.email wrote:
> >
> > Interesting reading and listening. Would one of the North American
members
> > of IRFCA tell me what the equivalent numbers and identification tags
might be
> > on the locos of Amtrak, SF? I would then go and take a look.
>
> I'm not certain I understand your question - could you clarify what
you
> mean by numbers and identification tags?
> --
> Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
> <A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
>
> Society for Preservation Of Southern Culture
> Our motto: Y'all say hey to your mama 'n' them, hear?
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Re: WP pictures webpage
Date: 11 Jul 1999 03:09:13 -0500
Hello,
Appu, I glanced just briefly at your WP as well as teh DLW sites: I
could'nt sit at the computer for long.
What I saw in those brief moments was impressive enough.
You have now assumed the status of a railway historian, some great soul
who records for posterity, for the benefit of future generations.
I salute you for that.
I shall post later after I have gone through the sites in some detail.
Best regards.
Shankar
Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Gang !
>
> Check out some WP pics from Daund shed.
>
> Have a look and get back with your comments. Go to:
> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~ApuB/index.htm">http://members.tripod.com/~ApuB/index.htm</A>
>
> and click on the WP pics links at the bottom.
From: Jayant S <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 11 Jul 1999 03:27:11 -0500
"S.Shankar" wrote:
>............ but the WDM/2 is supposed to be an
> adaptation of GM's Century Series.
Huh ? Sacrilege ! Sacrilege ! You shall be struck
down by a bolt of lightning from the main generator !
ALCO it was, and not some wimp of a GM loco !
(Hee hee, just kidding: after all, GM-EMD did build
the awesome UP Centennial diesels.....)
--
JS
--
From: C.L.Zeni <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 11 Jul 1999 05:20:45 -0500
Friends, if you would like to see some roof angle photos of some of the
modern American locomotives from both GM and from General Electric,
visit this small piece of my web space:
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/roofermadness">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/roofermadness</A>
No thumbnails I regret, just an index to the photos.
The locos are as follows (NS = Norfolk Southern Railroad):
NS 2729 - EMD GP38, 2000 hp, Bo-Bo
NS 5165 - EMD GP38-2, 2000 hp, Bo-Bo
NS 6522 - EMD SD50, 3500 hp, Co-Co
NS 6594 - EMD SD60, 3500 hp, Co-Co
NS 8663 - GE C39-8E, 3800 hp, Co-Co
NS 8789 - GE C40-9, 4000 hp, Co-Co
NS 8812 - GE C40-9, 4000 hp, Co-Co
NS 8840 - GE C40-9, 4000 hp, Co-Co
NS 8911 - GE C41-9W, 4100 hp, Co-Co
NS 9019 - GE C41-9W, 4100 hp, Co-Co
I took each of these photos, and posted this web page for US modelers
who always complain it's difficult to find roof views for modeling. The
C41-9W are examples of state of the art motive power here. They sound a
lot like Alcos, with huge thumping four cycle engines that make a
fantastic noise.
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
Society for Preservation Of Southern Culture
Our motto: Y'all say hey to your mama 'n' them, hear?
From: Tim & Anita Wakeman <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 11 Jul 1999 08:34:26 -0500
S.Shankar wrote:
>
> Hello,
> What Vdate probably means is this>>
> All the engines built by the DLW are apparently adaptations of some
old
> US design.
> He wants to know which US designs the DLW builds are adapted from, so
> that he can go and take a look see at the original.
> I don't know about the others, but the WDM/2 is supposed to be an
> adaptation of GM's Century Series. I shall post the exact model number
> later today.
> Best regards.
> Shankar
>
Shanker,
I do believe you mean ALCO Centuty series. The Alco/MLW designs were
sold to several foriegn builders.The 251 diesel was one of them. While
visiting Bangalore one friday evening, I came across one of these by the
platform. This was my first "up close" with an Indian diesel. While the
look from the outside was'nt familiar the
"cu-chunk..cu-chunk..cu..chunk..." sound on the inside was that of a
beating Alco heart. Sure was nice! Not much of those to come by here in
the states.
Tim
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Re: Which trains are these ?
Date: 11 Jul 1999 10:18:07 -0500
Hello,
I do not know about the Raj. Exp and the ex-Pune part, but I think
2637/2638 refers to the Dadar-MAdras/Cochin superfast Express
introduced somehwere in 1991-92.
THe train used ot run as Dadar-MAdras Superfast on certain days of the
week and as Dadar-Cochin superfast on ohter days.
I am not sure whether the Cochin part runs now at all,but the
Dadar-Madras superfast was de-rated from its superfast status,and booked
to run daily as the 6637/6638 Dadar-Madras Exp, later named as Chennai
Express.
I note from the 1998 CR timetable that the Chennai Exp hasnow been
re-numbered yet again as 1063/1064 Chennai Exp.
Best regards.
Shankar
Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Gang !
>
> I hope you have gone through my WDM 2 links page. I have another links
page from 1993.
> It lists trains such as 2103/2104, 2637/2638 (mentioned as Raj.
express - this is
> supposed to be ex Pune !!), 2731/2732 and 2603/2604. The first is the
newly started
> Kurla Bangalore Express (biweekly then ?), the current number is
1013/14. Can any
> timetable worm identify these trains from 1993?
> These trains may be not touching Pune but working the Solapur - Daund
- Manmad
> section.
> This vintage WDM 2 links page would be up soon.
>
> Apurva
From: S.Shankar <>
Subject: Re: Which trains are these ?
Date: 11 Jul 1999 10:21:23 -0500
Hello,
Just guessing,I think the 2731/2732 could be the Bombay-Secunderabad
Minar Express, then a superfast, then later de-rated.
Best regards.
Shankar
Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Gang !
>
> I hope you have gone through my WDM 2 links page. I have another links
page from 1993.
> It lists trains such as 2103/2104, 2637/2638 (mentioned as Raj.
express - this is
> supposed to be ex Pune !!), 2731/2732 and 2603/2604. The first is the
newly started
> Kurla Bangalore Express (biweekly then ?), the current number is
1013/14. Can any
> timetable worm identify these trains from 1993?
> These trains may be not touching Pune but working the Solapur - Daund
- Manmad
> section.
> This vintage WDM 2 links page would be up soon.
>
> Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Which trains are these ?
Date: 12 Jul 1999 00:02:01 -0500
Shankar,
Both the Chennai Express 6063/64 and Minar Express (2102/02) are
mentioned separately in the
link. Even I remember that there was a Dadar Cochin Express which was
withdrawn later. Again
this is not Netravati Express, which is also mentioned separately.
For Chennai Exp, the Pune power goes to Renigunta and back, for Minar
the power goes to
Secunderabad and further to Kazipet with the Minar rake now renamed as
Konark Express. For
Netravati, the Pune power goes from Pune to Cochin and then back. Will
you flog you car for
1822 kms to reach CHTS at 1145 hrs only to travel another 1822 Kms back
to Pune at 1330 hrs
? I doubt if the loco is shut down between duties. Smaller stations like
Kolhapur do all
their shunting and rake formation using the powers waiting to pick up
their return link.
Apurva
"S.Shankar" wrote:
> Hello,
> Just guessing,I think the 2731/2732 could be the Bombay-Secunderabad
> Minar Express, then a superfast, then later de-rated.
> Best regards.
> Shankar
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> >
> > Gang !
> >
> > I hope you have gone through my WDM 2 links page. I have another
links page from 1993.
> > It lists trains such as 2103/2104, 2637/2638 (mentioned as Raj.
express - this is
> > supposed to be ex Pune !!), 2731/2732 and 2603/2604. The first is
the newly started
> > Kurla Bangalore Express (biweekly then ?), the current number is
1013/14. Can any
> > timetable worm identify these trains from 1993?
> > These trains may be not touching Pune but working the Solapur -
Daund - Manmad
> > section.
> > This vintage WDM 2 links page would be up soon.
> >
> > Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Great Job!!!
Date: 12 Jul 1999 00:11:19 -0500
Thanks Prakash for your kind comments,
Only the Up freight loads (descending the ghats) require
additional powers in the front to augment the braking effort.
All trains of all sizes, with the exception of EMUs (climbing
with extreme caution without passengers) require a banker
while ascending the ghat.
The freight trains usually are manned by qualified ghat
drivers during the descend, as the goods drivers may lack the
experience to keep the rake under control. The most difficult
loads in the ghats are reputed to be the TK 4 wheeler oil
tankers as the sloshing liquid makes braking tricky. The most
unstable vehicles are the CRT 4 wheeler closed wagons which
have a nasty reputation of derailing and instability. This is
ascertained by the number of derailed CRT wagons along any
given train route. It is much rare to see BCN or BOXN lying on
their backs.
The WP model is a one off job costing over a lack and a half.
The WDM 2 are not motorized, these are static pieces meant for
display in the railway facilities and offices. These cost
about Rs. 10 K.
(painted to the shed colours of your choice ?)
Apurva
prakash@us.email wrote:
> Hi Apurva,
>
> The pictures are really great!!
>
> It was surprising to see Deccan Queen descending without
> bankers. Does Indrayani need bankers during descend?
>
> Matheran scenary has not changed a bit.
>
> Pics of WP are superb!
>
> A question. How much do they charge for WP and WDM (and
> any other, if they exist) brass models? Do these models
> confirm HO scale and do they have motors to make them run?
>
> I might buy them during my next visit in February 2000.
>
> Prakash
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: DLW's website
Date: 12 Jul 1999 00:12:25 -0500
Jayant S wrote:
> "S.Shankar" wrote:
> >............ but the WDM/2 is supposed to be an
> > adaptation of GM's Century Series.
>
> Huh ? Sacrilege ! Sacrilege ! You shall be struck
> down by a bolt of lightning from the main generator !
> ALCO it was, and not some wimp of a GM loco !
I think Shankya confused between GM/ EMD and GE/ ALCO !
>
>
> (Hee hee, just kidding: after all, GM-EMD did build
> the awesome UP Centennial diesels.....)
>
> --
> JS
> --
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: WDM 2 roof shots
Date: 12 Jul 1999 03:32:32 -0500
Gang !
Please check out Bharat's website for an excellent high shot
of a WDM 2. Annie and Steve could use this info for their WDM
2 model.
Go to: <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~railinindia/south.html">http://members.tripod.com/~railinindia/south.html</A>
and find the picture of the ERS shed WDM 2 # 18374 lazing at
MAQ fueling pit. Be sure to click on the thumbnail (large
thumbnails !) for a still larger picture.
Apurva