IRFCA Mailing List Archive

Messages 6041 - 6060

From: Marcelo Benoit <>

Subject: Re: National Geographic I.R. article

Date: 05 May 1999 23:52:02 -0500

>Theroux's journey was undertaken around 1986-1987, so I wonder if the
>factory is still active? The book also mentions that some countries -
>notably Thailand and Pakistan - rely almost exclusively on the Datong
>Locomotives for their traction.

The Datong factory ended the built of steam locomotives in 1988 BUT they
built several after that date (including two steams for USA!). Thailand
and
Pakistan, as far as I know, hadn´t Datong locomotives. The steam locos
dissappeared long ago from Thailand and Pakistan had only old steamers.

The Paul Theroux book "The Old Patagonian Express" is about a trip in a
lot
of trains from Boston (USA) to Esquel in Argentina. "The Old Patagonian
Express" is the name that the author put to the narrow gauge (0,75m)
Ingeniero Jacobacci-Esquel line in Argentina. After the book was
written,
the line started to be called "The Old Patagonian Express" everywhere
(now
the locomotives have in the tenders the inscription "El viejo expreso
patagonico", translation to Spanish of the name given by Paul Theroux).
In
Argentina the line is know as "La Trochita" (little gauge) and is as
famous
as the Darjeeling. Now the line is operated only between El Maiten and
Esquel (Chubut Province Railway), the El Maiten-Ingeniero Jacobacci
(where
it connects with the broad gauge line Bariloche-Bahia Blanca) section is
closed since 1995 when the Rio Negro province railway (SEFEPA) was short
of
cash and with a political management. The SEFEPA section of "La
Trochita"
is now mantained by several volunteers and there is a project to restore
services. Ingeniero Jacobacci has a daily train service to Bariloche
and
twice a week to Viedma over the broad gauge line.

Regards,

Marcelo

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 06 May 1999 01:27:07 -0500

>
>
> C: SOme ng cars on the WR, notably in the Dabhoi area have special dog
> boxes with doggie-level lookout windows, usually closed with
exquisitely
> shaped grillework.A pic of one of these lookouts is featured in the
book
> 'India-No Problem Sahib".

Even the Matheran rakes have this feature. Actually all guard's van have
an
animal cage, only in case of a BG carriage the cage is approachable from
inside, however due to the narrow width of the NG (obviously !) the
animal
cage of the MLR and Dabhoi rakes is approached from the outside. Also
deserving mention are the converted freight rakes on the Barsi Light
Railway
to haul passengers. These were regular four and eight wheeler covered
wagons
which were debuted to haul passengers in the days of religious festivals
at
Pandharpur. This fact needs to be confirmed.

> 3. Sandhurst Road station on the Bombay (oops:Mumbai) suburban section
> is the only one in the country to be situated on two levels:regular,
and
> upper level.I think the upper level station must be the only station
in
> India to be built completely on top of a bridge.

True. Legend has it that the Sandhurst Road flyover has a piece of
steel
rail buried in its side. The great dock explosion of the 1924 (?) had
thrown
debris all over the South Mumbai area including this piece of steel.

> 4. The approach to the upper level station is by a steep incline (all
> harbor line trains take this). This is supposed to be the steepest
> UN-AIDED climb for bg on the entire IR network.

However the EMU motorman shuts off the power after an initial 1/3rd run,
the
station limit is just after the bridge and the momentum of the rake
carries
it over the incline. Although I doubt if a train can actually start
from
that incline if it had to stop due to some reason.

> 6.The wooden foot overbridge at Madras Egmore must also be one of a
> kind.

Can the gang in Chennai confirm that Egmore is actually pronounced as
'Eshmore' in Tamil ? I have a old SR tt in Hindi which seems to suggest
this
pronunciation. Also Shoranur = 'Shronur' ?

> 7.Shunting by elephant in certain areas, I think on the NF or ER.

I have seen shunting by human power as well. The 'wagon level' shunting
on
the MLR is done by pushing the wagons around by the station staff. I
have
seen a BG four wheeler 'C' wagon being pushed to its final shunting
destination by 5 - 6 people in Bhusawal. However the wagon was given the
initial push by a WG (those were the days !).

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 06 May 1999 01:29:12 -0500

> This brings up a question.... Are there any stretches of IR where any
> ATS or ATP are currently deployed, or any sor tof Cab Signalling
> anywhere?

The Mumbai EMUs carry ATS which detect jumping of a red signal and stop
the
train. Mumbai gang please confirm.

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Mango and other fruit specials

Date: 06 May 1999 01:37:04 -0500

No climate control for the BCN, it is hopefully water tight. You will
notice
the stencilled letters - WT (water tested) or NWT (not tested !) for
the
status of their water tightness.
I do not think the IR has any refrigerated wagons. Although in the past
there
was an air conditioned rake for carrying race horses between Mumbai and
Pune.
There is a vategory of eight wheeler parcle vans which is still
referred to
as 'horse box'.

Apurva

Vdate@aol.email wrote:

> Are the BCNs climate controlled or is the fruit picked a little unripe
to
> stand hot closed wagon for many hours under hot summer sun?

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Picture of a WP

Date: 06 May 1999 01:38:50 -0500

Bhusawal Jn has plinthed an entire WP next to the station. You
can
observe it from any north bound train from Mumbai side on your
left.
Daund has a plinted ZE class but in a training institute
campus.
Apurva

Henry Posner III wrote:

> I believe there are WP plinthed at at least one location besides the
Rail
> Museum in Delhi. One of the Indian Steam Sunset videos (excellent, by
the
> way)includes a WP being Black Beauty-fied in advance of a plinthing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Apurva Bahadur [mailto:iti@vsnl.email
> Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 12:23 PM
> To: Dipl.-Ing. Nikolaus Sbarounis
> Cc: IRFCA
> Subject: Re: Picture of a WP
>
> Thanks - There are only two left at Charbagh which are being
retrofitted
> with
> airbrakes to possibly haul the Palace on wheels.
>
> "Dipl.-Ing. Nikolaus Sbarounis" wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 05 May 1999 18:20:30 +0530, Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> >
> > > This is a rare picture on the internet. The picture of a WP !
> > > Check it out on my webpage and get back with your comments
> > > <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/">http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/</A>
> > >
> > > Apurva
> > >
> >
> > Beautiful! I'm dying to see them once again in regular service!
> >
> > ________________________________________________
> > Visit my rail website:
> > <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7209</A>
> >
> > _______________________________________________________
> > Get your free, private email at <A HREF="http://mail.excite.com/">http://mail.excite.com/</A>

From: Suresh Mutuswami <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 06 May 1999 02:05:40 -0500

On Wed, 5 May 1999, Shankar wrote:

> But try this. The longest station name on the IR network (certainly an

> oddity) is VENKATANARASIMHARAJUVARIPETA: The station immediately after
> Renigunta (when proceeding towards Bombay) on the Madras-Bombay
> line.However, its only a flag station, and is not listed.

Thanks for a nice list of oddities. Just a brief clarification.
Venkatanarasimharajuvaripeta (Halt) is the first station on the Andhra
side when proceeding from Madras towards Bombay. The last Tamil Nadu
station is Ponpadi. As such, Renigunta which is also in Andhra comes
afterwards.

Suresh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Picture of a WP

Date: 06 May 1999 02:10:49 -0500

Pradip613@aol.email wrote:

> A beautiful picture of the WP in Apurva's web site. Disappointing to
hear
> that there are only two left. Is that two in service or just two in
all in
> India? Is there any place one can get scale models of the WP, in any
of the
> popular hobby sizes? If not, have any one of our hobbyists ever made
one of
> them from scratch? Would like to hear from any one with interesting
things
> they have done building scale models.

The Model Railway Society of Pune has built a 1/20 scale WP and a three
coach
rake. Once you are near the loco, it helps to get really close to the
model and
you get the same thrill (a spot of fear ?) as you would near a real WP.
There
are rivets on the tender, suspension for the wheels, springs for the
buffer, bar
grill for the headlight, lattice cow catcher, vacuum pipes - everything.
You
could check out the site: <A HREF="http://www.minirailways.com">http://www.minirailways.com</A>
I hope there are some pics of this beauty there. Else you can mail Ravi
Joshi
<ravi@minirailways.email and let him know that you want to see some
pictures.

The other immaculate and larger model of a WP was seen during the
Railway
Exhibition in 1996 in Pune. This was a WP ' Gondwana Queen' (what a name
! I
get goose pimples just thinking about the name - IMMACULATE - I just
have run
out of any other words to describe this power) from the Jabalpur shed of
the CR.
It was painted in the wicked matt black and green of the CR. This loco
has a
working Waelshaert's valve gear as well. It is attached to a compressed
air line
from the hidden side and it moves forward and back on a limited track
when the
throttle bar is opened and the reverser is rotated. The chuff chuff is
also
authentic, the heavy weight of the loco produces the realistic rumbling
when the
compressed air is cut off. There was also an air operated whistle but
that was
damaged in transit. This was the star attraction of the exhibit.
I was told by the JBP staff that they also have a WG on similar lines.
They were
not happy about handing this model over to the railway board in New
Delhi as now
the masters desire to permanently display the 'Gondwana Queen' at the
Rail
Bhawan.

Apurva

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Mango and other fruit specials

Date: 06 May 1999 02:23:00 -0500

> I do not think the IR has any refrigerated wagons. Although in the
past there
> was an air conditioned rake for carrying race horses between Mumbai
and Pune.
> There is a vategory of eight wheeler parcle vans which is still
referred to
> as 'horse box'.
>

That's quite amazing. In the US, this is the only way fresh fruit is
available
in most of the country. Oranges used to be a delicacy except in
California.

So, is India so fecund all over that there are no places to where fruit
needs
to be brought in? I don't recall, for example, seeing many orange
groves around
Kerala.

Annie

From: Suresh Mutuswami <>

Subject: Re: TRAVELOGUES on IR, and books in general.

Date: 06 May 1999 04:49:21 -0500

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath wrote:

> To be fair to Ian Kerr, it was always intended as a scholarly
work,
> directed mainly at labour historians. I have had the book since
publication,
> and in my opinion, it is a very good scholarly work, even though it
quite
> definitely isn't bedtime reading! I don't entirely agree with Kerr's
Marxist
> positions, but he makes a good case for them. THere is no faulting his
> detailed research, or the care he has taken.

I guess my use of the word "unfortunately" was incorrect. As you have
stated, his work is impeccable even if one doesn't always agree with his
Marxist viewpoint. I only meant to say that his work is not exactly
meant
for laymen and in the process implied something more. Sorry.

> The problem is that there is a massive literature on the economics
and
> administration, plus numerous detailed studies of special aspects, but
very
> little on engineering and on social history. (Compare, e.g.,
Swivelbusch's
> magnificent The Railway Journey with the available literature on
India).
> There are some stirrings of interest in social history, but
engineering and
> its significance continue to be neglected.

Yes, the engineering and social aspects have been totally neglected.
Other railways have worked out methods for remembering their famous
engineers. One way is to name products etc. after the engineers who
invented them. I don't know if IR does the same. In any case, if
anyone
knows the names of some of the famous engineers of IR, please post them
along with their engineering achievements. (In any case, a list
detailing
the significant engineering achievements on IR would be welcome.)

The social aspects of our railways have to be taken seriously too.
Unfortunately, other than anecdotes, I am not aware of any work
documenting how the changes in Indian society have affected our railways
and vice versa.

Finally, I look forward to your book, Dr. Walker.

Suresh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: National Geographic I.R. article

Date: 06 May 1999 08:44:20 -0500

>The Datong factory ended the built of steam locomotives in 1988 BUT
they
>built several after that date (including two steams for USA!).
Thailand
and
>Pakistan, as far as I know, hadn´t Datong locomotives. The steam locos
>dissappeared long ago from Thailand and Pakistan had only old steamers.
>

Correct. The youngest lot of steam locos that Pakistan had/has are the
CWDs(Canadian War Department)!

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 06 May 1999 09:19:33 -0500

>D. SOme of the wartime MAWD engines on the SR had their headlight
>fitted to the middle of the smokebox door, (somewhat like the WP, but
>without
>the streamlining. This greatly enhanced their typical Yankee
appearance.
>

The MAWD(also referred as McArthurs)1500 shot by Steven McCurry besides
the
Taj and discussed recently on the list was one of the kind. They did
look
quaint on Indian Railways.

>2.Solar semaphore signal on the SR.

I think it only the beacon which works on Solar Power. The Semaphore
mechanism is manual as usual. These were put on trials. Have they been
successful?

>4. The approach to the upper level station is by a steep incline (all
>harbor line trains take this). This is supposed to be the steepest
>UN-AIDED climb for bg on the entire IR network.

I believe only EMUs have worked on this section. And if that is the case
it
cannot be called fully unaided as it will always have a motorman at the
rear
end as well. Correct me if Iam wrong.

Dear Shankar, I think your initiative of starting this line of Oddities
on
IR is Great.
Just wait. Will be back soon with my contributions.

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: travel writing

Date: 06 May 1999 09:30:04 -0500

-
> The article, called Journey on a Perfect little Train
>describes a November 1977 journey from Delhi to Palumpur including a
>steam cab ride on the Kangra Valley line.

How very strange. Are you sure it was '77 and did steam survive on KVR
till
then ?

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Oddities on IR.

Date: 06 May 1999 10:13:44 -0500

>A: The railways came to the Garkwar of Baroda's private estate long
>before the engines did. His wagons used to be hauled by bullocks,They
>were loosely referred to as 'bullockomotives'. A large b/w blowup of a
>train hauled by a pair of bullockomotives used to adorn the indoor
>galleries of the National Rail museum in Delhi. Its not there any more.
>B: The Patiala State monorail needs no mention.There is a full website
>about it, thanks to Don Dickens.

Even the PSMT initially used bullocks for motive power. In fact the
duration
for which bullocks were used was much longer that that of haulage by the
4
locos. One section namel the Morrinda line never even used anything
other
than the oxen. And all this in Twentieth Century!

>D: Harsh can enlighten us only too well about the Ramgotty's wooden
>brakes.

Ramgotty(1862) has many special features including the one of wooden
brakes
that you've mentioned. It was the first locomotive to be named after an
Indian, Ramgotty Mukherjee, the then railway manager of Naihati Area.
Ramgotty comes from Anjubault of France, a country whose locomotives
were
very rare on IR. It was originally a 4 ft gauge locomotive and regauged
to
5'6", the only loco ever to be done so.

>F: The ZF ng power packed steam loco on the Kalka Simla railway has no
>driver's lookout (windshields) with the boiler leading.ALL other steam
>locos have the lookout on the boiler side!

The ZFs and the KCs were never driven with the long hood(boiler)
leading.
One of the best Hindi movie song dedicated to trains is filmed on a
KC(520)
on the Kalka Simla stretch. It is `Gaadi bula rahi hai' from `Dost'. A
Dharmendra, Hema starrer in technicolour.

Harsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Accident at Tada

Date: 06 May 1999 10:43:30 -0500

> Due to the derailment, both the up and down lines were affected. A
> massive effort was on to restore the track
> which was affected, at the earliest. The restoration process suffered
> delay as a crane which was being taken to
> the accident site, derailed on the way, near Ponneri railway station,
> about 35 km from Tada.

This seems to be quite a serious accident. It takes quite an impact to
snap an axle !
No impact that I can imagine.
I am reminded of a brake van which derailed six times while climbing
from Karjat to
Lonavala in the Mumbai - Pune line. The brake down rake from Lonavala
which followed
this unlucky wagon also derailed once ! The brake down special at LNL
has jobs often
as the ghat with its unstable surface, torrential rainfall and steep
slope has
derailments often.
One of the special group of men homed at Lonavala is the 'boulder gang'
whose job is
to climb the imposing ghat mountains overlooking the rails and judge
which boulder is
unstable. Once the patch of land is identified, it is either reinforced
or is simply
blasted or dislodged to eliminate any danger to the passing trains.
I also remember a half kilometre stretch of concrete sleepers which had
been cracked
neatly in the centre when a rake of TK wagons jumped the rails near
Nagnath in the
Bhor ghats. One side of the overhead masts was also bent but usable.
Apparently the
driver had no idea that the rake had derailed. I wonder what the guard
was doing ?
Holding tight I guess.

Apurva

From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: More pictures + FAQ update

Date: 06 May 1999 10:51:14 -0500

Hello,
I could view the pics at leisure only today.
A most impressive set of pics, I must say. Also got to see the memu for
the first time, Also impressive were the copious collection of pics of
the usually rare birds: WAM/2,WAG?4 etc.
Only, I think it should be WAG/4B and not 4D: but you'll know better:
you've beem there, and photographed them.
Keep em coming.
Best regards.
Shankar

Shanku Niyogi wrote:
>
> I now have the last batch of pictures from my India trip on my web
site.
> They include
> - pictures of the WAP5, WAG9, WAP1, WAP6, WDP1, and various goods
locos on
> the HWH-NDLS line.
> - pictures of the WDS4 bringing the Rajdhani rake into Howrah station
> - very close (20 feet + zoom) shots of two Rajdhanis passing my train
(less
> than 5 minutes apart!)
> - a shot of the new green-yellow GT rake
> - a couple of shots of the twin-Rajdhani WDM2s (with the 2305 Up Raj,
which
> I was on) at Madhupur station.
>
> That makes 61 shots in all from the trip on the site (there were more,
but
> not worth scanning). My only wish is that I'd been able to get a
picture of
> a Shatabdi - alas, New Delhi station was too crowded to get a good
shot of
> one. Also, next time I will have to come out west and catch some
WCAMs.
>
> The gallery format is at
<A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images.html">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images.html</A>.
>
> The single page list of all images is at
> <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images_all.html">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images_all.html</A>
>
> I am currently working on getting the FAQ (put together by Satish)
onto the
> irfca.org website - I'll have something there by the end of the
weekend.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Shanku

From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: More pictures + FAQ update

Date: 06 May 1999 10:51:14 -0500

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Ladies special EMU

Date: 06 May 1999 11:04:30 -0500

Today is the 5th anniversary of the 'Ladies Only' EMU service on the
Western Railway
in Mumbai.

>From the TOI of Thursday 6th May 1999.

"Quote"

'Ladies Special' a home away from home'
Like a drill, sari 'pallus' are ticked in, dupattas are tied around the
waists, the
leather straps of handbags are held firmly and bodies lean forward
expectantly in
synchronized motion. This can be witnessed as the 'Ladies Special' train
hurtles into
Churchgate station at 6 pm every evening and women prepare to board it.
It is the
"world's first all women train" which the Western Railway (WR) began
exactly five
years ago on May 5.
Says Vinita Pande, a resident of Goregaon: " The special train is a big
relief.
Earlier we just had a first class and a second class compartment for the
women
commuters and these were very crowded during peak hours." For Nalini
Shah, an employee
with a private firm at Nariman point, the ladies special means no
jostling with men on
the platform. "The ladies compartments are situated between the general
compartments.
Men tend to jump in and out at stations banging into women waiting to
get into the
compartments. Now that problem is over," She said.
For several women the train has made life at home easy. "I buy
vegetables on the way
to the station and cut them in the train. It saves a lot of time apart
from helping me
kill boredom during journey," says Malini Patil, a resident of Virar.
The special
train has become a home away from home for several women commuters, who
wait for it
even if they reach the station early.

"Unquote"

So this is a slow train from Churchgate to Virar. I wonder if the
driver, guard and
the ticket checking staff are women too. Mumbai gang confirm. What are
the timings of
the Up train ?

Apurva

From: C.L.Zeni <>

Subject: Re: Accident at Tada

Date: 06 May 1999 11:25:55 -0500

Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> > Due to the derailment, both the up and down lines were affected. A
> > massive effort was on to restore the track
> > which was affected, at the earliest. The restoration process
suffered
> > delay as a crane which was being taken to
> > the accident site, derailed on the way, near Ponneri railway
station,
> > about 35 km from Tada.
>
> This seems to be quite a serious accident. It takes quite an impact to
snap an axle !
> No impact that I can imagine.

Unless the axle had an internal flaw that had gone undetected during the
manufacturing process. Any sort of internal flaw will become a "stress
riser", ie, a place where stresses concentrate. In a good axle, the
stresses are evenly distributed, but in an axle with this type of defect
the stresses concentrate, and can easily exceed the strenght of the axle
with fairly moderate impacts - such as experienced when crossing
pointwork or low rail joints.
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com

<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>

Keep off the grass. Or at least don't inhale.

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: More pictures + FAQ update

Date: 06 May 1999 11:28:31 -0500

Thanks, Shankar.

This brings up a point. Our mailing list is fairly lacking in
representation
(or perhaps active content) from the Eastern and Northern areas. So,
while
pictures and stories from WR, CR, SR etc. are plentiful, its rare to see
anything from NR, NER, and ER.

Among the things we are missing because of this:
- any coverage/pics of the ER's remaining WAM1s, which are, in a sense,
one
of the few historic locomotive classes still in operation (being seen
both
in the NRM and in service). It probably won't be long before the WAM1
and
WAM2 are history.
- coverage of mainline operations between Howrah and Delhi, where a
fascinating range of electric locos can be seen, including the latest,
WAP5
and WAG9.
- more coverage of the twin-WDM2 Patna Rajdhani, while it still lasts.
(One
of my regrets from the trip was not being able to get more footage of
this
beautiful train.)
- more info on the Mughal Sarai yard, which is a giant of its kind. Also
important sheds such as Asansol, Gomoh, and Ghaziabad for electrics, and
Andal for diesels.
- coverage of interesting, possibly experimental, stuff seen around CLW,
DLW, etc.
- info on the ghats on the Gaya chord.

Perhaps we should more actively court interested railfans from those
parts
of India, and encourage those already here to contribute more local
content?

Shanku

-----Original Message-----
From: Shankar [mailto:shankie@emirates.email
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:51 AM
To: Shanku Niyogi
Cc: irfca@cs.email
Subject: Re: More pictures + FAQ update

Hello,
I could view the pics at leisure only today.
A most impressive set of pics, I must say. Also got to see the memu for
the first time, Also impressive were the copious collection of pics of
the usually rare birds: WAM/2,WAG?4 etc.
Only, I think it should be WAG/4B and not 4D: but you'll know better:
you've beem there, and photographed them.
Keep em coming.
Best regards.
Shankar

From: Auroprem Kandaswami <>

Subject: More coaches for Delhi-bound trains

Date: 06 May 1999 14:09:44 -0500

CHENNAI, MAY 6. The Southern Railway has provided three additional
coaches
to the Chennai
Central-New Delhi Tamil Nadu
Expresses (train
no. 2621/2622) and Grand
Trunk Expresses (train no. 2615/2616)
from
May 5.

The coaches will be an AC two tier,
an AC
three tier and a sleeper class.

With the inclusion, there will be an
additional capacity of 92 berths in the AC
two tier coach, 128 berths in the AC
three
tier and 144 berths in the sleeper
class. Passengers with waitlisted
tickets
will now get confirmed accommodation
to the extent of the additional
capacity,
states a Southern Railway press release.

***

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