IRFCA Mailing List Archive

Messages 4881 - 4900

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Railways through Goa

Date: 30 Dec 1998 01:21:54 -0500

Gang - just adding to the current thread on the KR and SCR lines through

I had been to Madgaon section in July 1997 to assist the fault finding
of a DEMU (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit). The DEMU engine would trip as
soon as the train started to sway. Our man Ram Vila Paswan was due to
inaugurate this run in a few days and had the DEMU tripped on him,
everyone on the KR would have got the chop. The engine of a DEMU is a
Cummins India VTA 1710 of around 700 HP. It is a V 12 driving a BHEL or
NGEF alternator. There are four traction motors and the a sophisticated
electronic load governing system provides really zippy acceleration for
this three coach train. The electronic + electro mechanical control
panel for engine is designed and produced by me and my company, hence as
the 'subject experts' (heh heh) we were supposed to solve the problem of
the engine tripping.
We spent three full days inside the DEMU engine compartment, checking
all the parts of the control system but the tripping continued. In the
end we disconnected the sensors which detect the radiator water level
and the hydraulic oil level and since that day, the DEMU has been
running without a problem. Since that day, I believe that the sensors
have neither been replaced nor a trial has been conducted to see if the
problem has been solved. But the really well motivated and professional
KR gang do take care that the liquid levels are all right. The problem
had something to do with the damping of the sloshing water or hyd. oil
when the train enters a curve. The flip side of the story is that I have
seen the Cankona - Madgaon - Suravali - Majorda - Verna - Old Goa
section in really great detail. I have no regrets at all for doing
nothing else at Goa on that trip - no beaches, no churches, no feni -
only the Madgaon yard and train trials runs. It was ideal circumstances
- we could go for trials when ever required and lunch and tea breaks
were arranged by just stopping the train and crossing the road to the
shack that served the food.
The KR line from Mangalore - Karwar side enters Goa from the South at
Cankona - then the line moves to the south towards Cancona and Karwar.
The South Central line comes from the east via the Briganza ghat to
Kulem - Madgaon. Then the lines combine and the double line BG goes over
the Sal river bridge to Suravali halt then the crossover point to
Majorda (which is a Junction now). After Majorda Jn. one line moves
further towards west towards Vasco and Murmugoa port while the KR line
moves north towards Verna (which has the upcoming diesel shed and
marshaling yard). Further the Kr line goes over the new Zuari bridge to
Old Goa and then to Pernem. Thus the double line Madgaon - Majorda
section is shared by SCR and KR. The Madgaon Jn is a new station while
the old Madgaon station (with a sloping tiled roof) is 100 meters away
and was still MG (there were some marooned MG wagons in those days)
There are some doubts about the state of the road bridge on the Zuari
river, and if that is to collapse or get damaged in some way, the new
rail bridge will be the only convenient link from Panaji to Madgaon.
My index page is up on my tripod site. I am enlosing the URL in a
separate mail. Please do see the DEMU pictures in Goa.


From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Index to my site

Date: 30 Dec 1998 01:40:15 -0500

Gang !

Atlast I have made an index to my site.

<A HREF=""></A>

Check out the various pics and get back to me with comments


From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Indian Alco pictures

Date: 30 Dec 1998 03:59:15 -0500

Gang - please contribute !


From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: EMU's and DMU's

Date: 30 Dec 1998 09:09:09 -0500

Harsh Vardhan wrote:

> Dear Apurva and others,
> It seems that there is some confusion here about the diesel powered
> and Push-pull trains(in my mind at least!). Could someone just please
> explain these two terminology in context to IR? Also please inform
where the
> DMU's are being used in India?

The WDM 2 powered Push Pull trains are a stop gap measure. The rake has
been assembled
by the larger workshops of the IR like Parel, Jamalpur, Golden Rock etc.
The reason
why the WDM2 is in the middle is that these are 'single operator' trains
while a WDM 2
must have two persons to allow good observation due to the hoods. Thus
the diesel
push pull train has cabs fabricated from the coaches on both ends and an
unmanned WDM
2 in the middle. These trains are ugly as hell because the cabs and the
front end are
developed by the workshops themselves and they would have limited
facilities (and a loud sense of aesthetics and an unrestrained paint
although they fully equipped for repair and refurbishing jobs.
The DEMU (Diesel Electric) or the DHMU (Diesel Hydraulic) trains on the
other hand are
'factory made' solutions. Actually a 2600 HP WDM2 is a waste on a ten
coach train. The
loco itself is quite heavy and that does not improve the power to weight
ratio of the
The distributed power of the DMU (DEMU = one Cummins India VTA 1710 V12
per 3 coach
formation - 700 HP, DHMU = two Cummins India NTA855R under floor flat
engine per three
coach formation - 2 X 350 HP) enables really snappy acceleration and the
twin pipe air
brakes provide competent retardation. The idea is that these DEMUs and
DHMUs run on
the main line between the mail express trains and accelerate and
decelerate at rates
which would not disrupt the traffic flow. A WDM 2 powered push pull
would never
accelerate and brake that fast.
The problem is that ICF Chennai cannot manufacture enough DEMUs and
DHMUs. Till the
day ICF can produce the DMUs on demand, the push pulls would continue.
These trains
can be seen in volumes at Jallandar, Secunderabad, Shoranur, Ahmedabad
etc. I would
post the latest countrywide distribution of these trains in the first
week of Jan when
the holiday spirited Cummins India gang comes back to their seats. All
the ICF DMUs
are fully vestibuled and have wiped out bus traffic where ever they are
Note that the RDSO designed and ICF manufactured DMU was manufacture
within 8 months
of the work order. Also the imported content of these trains is less
than 1%. While a
3 coach DEMU costs around Rs. 6 crores, a similar DMU from Alsthom would
be around
Rs.24 crores !
> Could you please inform the formation of the push-pull trains on the
> mentioned routes?

The diesel push pulls at Diva - Vasai and Bandra - Valsad are 5 coaches
on either side
with a WDM2 in the middle.
I have spotted push pull worked by WAM 4s and WAG 5s at Chennai and
Nagpur, they have
the loco right at one end, maybe these are 'one operator' trains as
well, but I doubt
if the large locos like WAM 4s can be safely operated by one person.



From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re:Fw: WDP 2 locomotive

Date: 30 Dec 1998 10:31:12 -0500

A few observations and remarks from my side on DMU's

There is a 3 coach DMU which operates on the KR between Karwar - Kudal -
Ratnagiri (almost 300 km) which is devoid of any toilet facilities. One
my friends who travelled by this train complained about this.

IMHO that DMU's must be used for shorter runs of max 100-125 km for any

Nagpur Badnera is about 170 km while Chennai - Arrkonnam is only 69 km
(comparable to Pune Lonavala or Mumbai CST - Badlapur). The latter are
purely commuter services and use EMU.

Dadar Ratnagiri is an estimated 342 km and this or similar trains are
definitely too long to put DMU's. The current 17 coach with II Chair Car
(108 pax) serves this purpose best.

>Balasubramanian, Vijay wrote:
>> Can someone answer Pushkar's question as to whether DMUs can run on
>> and Thul ghat sections?
>> -Vijay
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Pushkar Apte [
>> Sent: Monday, December 28, 1998 2:25 PM
>> To:
>> Subject: RE: WDP 2 locomotive
>> Hi Vijay,
>> Thanks for the messages. Also the WDP-2 pic is neat - looks like all
>> "P" locos in India are attaining the same shape (this one is v.
>> to WAP1,3, isn't it?
>I felt it is modeled after the GT 46 MAC (WDG 4) rather than the WAP
>portion of nose under the windscreen is longer than the portion above
>> Just briefly glanced at the messages, will look
>> more closely later. Interesting to read about the Pune-Nasik
>> train - I have had one such in my books for a while (via Kalyan).
>> just that it involves too many locos for such a small journey. Re:
>> Pune-Indore, I have never thought of that one, but I had conceived of
>> "Swaraj Exp." (before the JT was named Swaraj) that would come from
>> to Mumbai and then reverse directions and head for Delhi on WR and
>> for Amritsar. it would still beat Jhelum handily (Pune-Delhi), and
>> would take the Sahranpur-Meerut route to be complementary to Jhelum
>> overall.
>Where are you Pushkar, we all missed not having you. The imaginary
>would run like this ? Pune - Kalyan - Dombivali - Vasai - Vadodara -
Ratlam -
>Kota - Mathura - New Delhi - Saharnpur - Meerut - Ambala - Jammu ?
>Saharanpur - Meerut - Ambala is longer than via Panipat ? The shortest
>be via Jhakhal - Dhuri. I guess the portion where Jhelum really crawls
>Daund Manmad and the reversal at Daund wastes almost 40 minutes.
>> I guess one could imagine providing some form of service to
>> Indore as an off-shoot from this thought train.
>> One question I had - maybe you know the answer or you can put it on
>> net. Are the DMUs capable of negotiating either of the Khandala or
>> Kasara ghats?
>The problem of not so much of power but that of safety - A train
>Bhore / Thull ghats must be banked even if it consists of one coach
the GM
>special). This is to arrest a runaway in the event of a coupling
>note that the Banker driver sits in the FRONT cab of the LAST banker
>the 'last vehicle' is always manned and powered. Although EMUs climb
>without a banker, it is a risky activity and one that has never been
cleared for
>public use. Note that a loco inspector travels in the cab of a EMU to
assist in
>case of OHE failure or any such mishap. Once a fortnight the four EMU
>work the Pune - Lonavala local service are sent to Karjat to replace
with a
>fresh rake.
>If a Pune Nasik via Kalyan train is to be introduced, it must be of a
Push -
>Pull type where the loco always faces the Mumbai end. Thus while
>ghat the last vehicle would be powered. One more train which could be
>to a push pull type is the imaginary Pune - Bandra Terminus express
has to
>reverse at Vasai, a push pull rake would save many valuable minutes. I
wonder if
>the push pull trains like Nagpur - Badnera or Chennai - Arkonnam
>toilets, for that is required in a train working the medium distances.
>> I know the EMUs cannot.
>EMUs can climb the ghats but it are risky in event of a power failure
or a
>coupling failure. The light coaches of the EMU are deemed safer against
>heavier coaches. DMU are around 700 HP for a three coach formation. How
much is
>the HP of the EMUs?
>> But if the DMUs can, then the
>> Pune-Nasik train as well as relatively short-distance trains from
>> Pune/Nasik/Valsad/Vapi to Ratnagiri (say) on KR would become

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: Push Pull trains vs DMU

Date: 30 Dec 1998 11:11:00 -0500

One of the big cons regarding safety of push-pull trains has been topic
discussion recently in Canada - namely that, in the event of some kind
collision while the train is in push mode, the potential impact of the
locomotive on coaches in front of it is far more severe. Even in the
case of
high-speed derailment (100+ km/h), the locomotive becomes a very

-----Original Message-----
From: Balasubramanian, Vijay [
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:32 AM
Subject: Push Pull trains vs DMU


Two questions for the knowledgeable:

1. What are the pros and cons of using a Push Pull train vs a DMU?
to me that DMUs would have much better acceleration/deceleration b'coz
distribution of power.

2. Why are diesel-hauled Push Pull trains running on an electrified
between Diva and Vasai? Why not use EMUs? Is this b'coz of a shortage
DC EMUs? Or is there some other reason?

Curiously Yours,


Subject: Re: ****HAPPY NEW YEAR ****

Date: 30 Dec 1998 13:56:51 -0500

To all my email/Alco friends

I hope you all have a great New Years Eve and you cant remember
midnight when it finally arrives :)
I have enjoyed my first full year on the internet and have made many
great friends out of you all. I look foward to continuing this during
For all who get Alco Addict, I expect it will be out on the last day
of January. Even an Alco fan needs a holiday over this period :)
Please, everyone have a great New Years and all take care over the
holiday break.

Best Wishes
Brad Peadon

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: A greeting to all IRFCA members

Date: 30 Dec 1998 18:38:52 -0500

Its been great participating on this forum over the past 3 months now. 
And I have gained so much by our mutual interaction.
Looking forward to greater heights ahead ...
Seasons Greetings and My best wishes to all IRFCA members for a happy bright and prosperous 1999.   

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: ****HAPPY NEW YEAR ****

Date: 30 Dec 1998 19:38:47 -0500

Thanks Brad - Greetings to all and their families (and their locomotives

Apurva Bahadur


Please visit my website with lots of Indian Alco pictures.

<A HREF=""></A>


> To all my email/Alco friends
> I hope you all have a great New Years Eve and you cant remember
> midnight when it finally arrives :)
> I have enjoyed my first full year on the internet and have made many
> great friends out of you all. I look foward to continuing this during
> 1999.
> For all who get Alco Addict, I expect it will be out on the last day
> of January. Even an Alco fan needs a holiday over this period :)
> Please, everyone have a great New Years and all take care over the
> holiday break.
> Best Wishes
> Brad Peadon

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Info required

Date: 30 Dec 1998 23:14:23 -0500

Gang !

The new SD 90s MACs are supposed to have 'radial trucks' - the axles
have some freedom within the bogie/ truck so it follows the curvature of
the track. This leads to dramatic reduction in wheel or track wear. Have
I understood correctly and how much of freedom does the wheel really
have ?
Did the O&K Matheran loco have a similar feature ?


From: Juan M Celorio <>

Subject: Re: [MX] Re: ****HAPPY NEW YEAR ****

Date: 31 Dec 1998 00:34:56 -0500

Thanks Brad and "FELIZ AÑO NUEVO" to all of you !
Looking forward to the next issue of your publication.

Juan M Celorio
Mexico City

-----Original Message-----
To: < <
< < <
< < <
< < <
< < <
< <
< < Brian Alcock
< < < <
< <
Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 3:19 PM
Subject: [MX] Re: ****HAPPY NEW YEAR ****

>To all my email/Alco friends
> I hope you all have a great New Years Eve and you cant remember
>midnight when it finally arrives :)
> I have enjoyed my first full year on the internet and have made many
>great friends out of you all. I look foward to continuing this during
> For all who get Alco Addict, I expect it will be out on the last day
>of January. Even an Alco fan needs a holiday over this period :)
> Please, everyone have a great New Years and all take care over the
>holiday break.
>Best Wishes
>Brad Peadon

From: S.B.Mehta <>

Subject: Greetings

Date: 31 Dec 1998 01:41:20 -0500

Wish you all a very happy and prosperous 1999!!!


From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Indian Alco pictures

Date: 31 Dec 1998 03:47:02 -0500

From: Juan M Celorio <>

Subject: Wormald Open

Date: 31 Dec 1998 04:23:30 -0500

Next scan for the SCAN CLUB will be my entry for the "99 WORMALD OPEN".
those of you that might not know this, the Wormald Open is a yearly
tournament to select the best photo of the smokiest Alco - scan quality
amount of smoke produced are the critical factors. Instructions on how
achieve this are given in John Hadley's video
<A HREF=""></A>

Advice from Pepe the shrink : do not try this - repeat, do not try it -
INSIDE CITY LIMITS. Pepe and I got in trouble with the local police in
Puebla when charged with "polluting with an ALCO engine" :)
(Police car can be seen on left side)

For those that want to receive this scan, just say so.

From: Electronic Greeting Card Center <>

Subject: A digital postcard for you!

Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:00:43 -0500

A digital postcard is waiting for you. Your postcard contains a
picture selected just for you by the sender, along with a personalized
message. You have 2 weeks to view your digital postcard before it is
to the big mailbag in the sky.

Your postcard was sent to you by:

shankie -

If the above line is blank it means the sender chose to remain

Viewing your Postcard

Viewing your new postcard is very easy to do! In most e-mail
all you have to do is click on the URL right here:

<A HREF=""></A>

Some e-mail programs wont let you just click on the URL. That's
okay, it's still easy. Use your mouse to highlight the URL above and
EDIT and then COPY from the menu at the top of your program. Then, load
your web browser and click on the Location or Address window. Now select
EDIT and then PASTE from the menu.

Electronic Greeting Card Center

From: Vdate <>

Subject: Re: ****HAPPY NEW YEAR ****

Date: 31 Dec 1998 07:05:49 -0500

Happy Railroading in the coming New Year and don't forget to turn back
watches by one second tonight.

From: prakash <>

Subject: Hitachi loco

Date: 31 Dec 1998 09:30:37 -0500

Hi Apurva,

On one of your web pages, (<A HREF=""></A> )
you had asked for help in identifying the Hitachi or ABB AC loco.
You can see a similar loco with matching specs at
<A HREF=""></A>

I searched on ABB's home page to find any relevant info but no luck.


From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Greetings of the new year

Date: 31 Dec 1998 10:14:44 -0500

Gang !

It is approaching 0 hours in India. So happy new year to all my dear
friends and their

Apurva and Shyama

From: Juan M Celorio <>

Subject: Correction

Date: 31 Dec 1998 12:03:15 -0500

Corrections : The man that did the four Pentrex videos on the Railroads
México is Dan Hadley. Sorry Dan !

From: Janardan Ramesh <>

Subject: Happy new year

Date: 31 Dec 1998 12:43:30 -0500

I wanted to thank Apoorva and others who have been active in posting
beautiful (to a rail fan) pictures and interesting travelogues. Seeing
pictures and reading the postings makes me homesick.

Wishing everyone in this group a very happy new year