IRFCA Mailing List Archive
Messages 3961 - 3980
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Some facts about the Fairy Queen
Date: 31 Oct 1998 22:52:37 -0500
Shankar wrote:
> At 08:36 AM 10/31/98 +0530, you wrote:
> >Gang,
> >
> >The resurrected Fairy Queen now does regular Delhi - Alwar - Delhi
runs.
> >Some facts which were put up on a TV program recently - FQ was THE
loco
> >to run the Bori Bundar (Mumbai VT) - Thana train : which was the
first
>
> OOPS. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THE BORIBUNDER-THANA (INDIA'S FIRST
TRAIN: 16
> APR 1853) WAS ACTUALLY HAULED BY THREE ENGINES: CALLED SULTAN, SAHIB
AND
> SINDH. NONE OF THESE IS UNFORTUNATELY PRESERVED,THOUGH ONE OF THESE
ENGINES
> (I THINK SULTAN) WAS DISPLAYED OUTSIDE THE CHIEF MECH. ENGR.'S OFFICE
AT
> BYCULLA IN BOMBAY FOR A WHILE.
I was informing you what the TV programme on the FQ was saying. That the
FQ was the Bori Bunder - Thana loco must be wrong the Sultan, Sahib and
Sindh were indeed the locos for the first train. Was it a triple header
train ?
Apurva
From: Anne Ogborn <>
Subject: Re: What is a rake
Date: 01 Nov 1998 00:11:30 -0500
Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> Gang !
>
> This has been discussed before - without much success I feel.
> Please define the word 'Rake' for Alan. Why is it used only here and
not
> in the US ? First of all is is only queen's english which the
> commonwealth understands (Dr. K - your comments required) or is it
> Hinglish (like challan, lakh, crore) i.e. Hindi words which are now
> standard Indian English terminology.
>
> The entire IR uses this term. My best definition for them is a train
of
> coupled coaches with a defined purpose is known as a rake. The rake as
a
> collective name or a number and is normally kept coupled together. The
> term rake can be used for either passenger or freight trains.
> Gang please contribute to this thread and also elaborate the
difference
> between a rake and a formation.
>
> Apurva
US terminology -
"cut" - a coupled set of cars, for whatever purpose, without
engine.
"train" - the rule book defines a train as an engine, with or without
cars, displaying markers. (obsolete since NORAC
rules - US trains no longer have rear markers).
In common use a train often means a cut of cars which will become a
train
when the engine couples on.
unit - a single engine, e.g. "that locomotive had three units"
engine, locomotive - some confusion in US usage here, both sometimes
mean an
MU'ed set of units, sometimes a single
unit. Even more confusing in the FA days when some apparently coupled
units
were permanently drawbarred.
First time I heard the word Rake not be something for collecting leaves
or
spreading coals was on this list.
From: Rajat Bhargav <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 03:17:38 -0500
Hello,
This is my first mail to the group.
I have noticed a lot of pride and admiration for the Indian
Railways here. It is kind of reassuring to see that people still
appreciate the scale of problems and technolgy that goes into rail tpt.
The numbering of trains is dependent on the zone that 'owns' the
rake.
This is the first digit.
The second digit is the primary maintenance depot. [Each rake
has
a defined and pre-determined primary maintenance depot]
Hope that helps.
Rajat Bhargav
________________________________________________________________________
_______
J-310, IIM, Bannerghatta Road, Bangalore, India 560 076
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Pushkala Raman wrote:
> Hi Gang
>
> I am trying (very hard) to track along with the explanations for the
> numbering of trains. While I have understood how superfast trains are
> numbered, I am not sure what happens to a non super fast train. For
> instance, Shankar pointed out in his message that 6511/6512 is the
Madras
> (Chennai)-Bombay, where the 6xxx stands for a SR train. In this case,
what
> does the 5 (second digit) stand for? It does not seem to represent
the
> destination railway.
>
>
> >
> >Actually, its the 6 which has caused all the confusion. Actually,
what
> >Apurva means that SR trains originating out of Madras will usually
have
> >their numbers commencing with 6, eg. 6511/6512 Madras (Chenai)-Bombay
> >(mumbai) Exp.
> >What Apurva meant was that Madras is Zone 6: SR.
> >
>
> Pushkala Raman (praman@garnet.email
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Florida State University, Marketing Department
> Room 525 Rovetta Business Building, Tallahassee FL 32306-1110
> Ph: 850-644-9283
>
> <A HREF="http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~praman">http://garnet.acns.fsu.edu/~praman</A>
>
>
>
From: Shankar <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 03:20:11 -0500
Alan,
A rake is typical IR parlance, which is used to describe a complete
train
formation MINUS the engine. i.e., if you consider the entire train, i.e.
all
its cars as a unit formation, and leave the locomotive out, then you are
looking at a rake.
In the case of e.m.u.s with no spearate loco as such, the nine car or
twelve
car formation is called a rake.
Thats why the IR sometimes says, the (say) Jhelum Express has two rakes,
one
going and the other coming. Ias teh journey is nearly two days long, its
not
possible to run a daily service with only one rake.
That should make it crystal clear.
Best regards.
Shankar
At 10:28 PM 10/31/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>Now the mystery of Indian Railways begins to bite Alan !
>
>Indeed it does! Now if someone could just explain to me (and my
dictionary)
>what a rake is.
>
>>I hope I have not confused you further.
>>Apurva
>
>Not at all--quite the contrary; this is very helpful information. Could
>someone recommend trains from Nagpur to Lucknow?
>
>And one more routing question: In going from Varanasi to Shimla, is it
>necessary (or more time efficient) to go through Delhi? Or is there a
train
>that goes more directly to Kalka via Luchnow Moradabad and Saharanpur?
>
>Regards,
>Alan Sponberg
>
>
From: Rajat Bhargav <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 03:22:57 -0500
A rake is a string of vehicles that have been couple together.
In the form of a simple equation
Rake + Loco = Train
Rajat Bhargav
________________________________________________________________________
_______
J-310, IIM, Bannerghatta Road, Bangalore, India 560 076
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Alan Sponberg wrote:
> >
> >Now the mystery of Indian Railways begins to bite Alan !
>
> Indeed it does! Now if someone could just explain to me (and my
dictionary)
> what a rake is.
>
> >I hope I have not confused you further.
> >Apurva
>
> Not at all--quite the contrary; this is very helpful information.
Could
> someone recommend trains from Nagpur to Lucknow?
>
> And one more routing question: In going from Varanasi to Shimla, is it
> necessary (or more time efficient) to go through Delhi? Or is there a
train
> that goes more directly to Kalka via Luchnow Moradabad and Saharanpur?
>
> Regards,
> Alan Sponberg
>
>
From: Iain A Fraser <>
Subject: Re: What is a rake
Date: 01 Nov 1998 04:32:12 -0500
Hi
As I understand it.....a rake is a group of vehicles (passenger or
non-passenger) kept together for a defined purpose. The formation is the
type of vehicles within that rake.
For example a rake of coaches on a particular working schedule may
consist of 2 or 3 different types of coach within the formation
(brake vans, buffet cars etc).
Hope that makes sense
Cheers
Iain
Aerolite Booktraders
Railway Book Specialist
<A HREF="http://www.aerolite.u-net.com">http://www.aerolite.u-net.com</A>
Listmaster. London & North Eastern Railway group
Webpage: <A HREF="http://www.bulleid.force9.co.uk/lneeg/">http://www.bulleid.force9.co.uk/lneeg/</A>
From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 05:37:48 -0500
The numbering has been discussed before. Each train is
assigned a 4-digit number.
Digit 1: The Zone where the train is homed
Digit 2: The Division within the zone where the train is homed
Exception:
If the first digit is "2" then it is a superfast train.
In this case, digit 2 denotes the zone where the train is homed.
If the first digit is "0" (or rather if the train number is a
2-digit or 3-digit number) then it is a short-distance passenger train.
Exception to the exception:
If the first digit is "2" and the second digit is "0" then it is
a Shatabdi Express train.
There are no trains with both first and second digits as "2".
For passenger trains, the same number can be used for passenger trains
in different parts of the country. To differentiate between them,
normally two letters are added which are usually the first letter
of the end-points. For example a passenger train between Lucknow
and Kanpur may be numbered as LK21.
-dheeraj
--------------
Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413
(Fax)
Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
Home Page: <A HREF="http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj">http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj</A>
From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>
Subject: Re: Timetables have arrived/concessions
Date: 01 Nov 1998 06:00:35 -0500
> There are a couple of amazing pages that list Rail Travel Concessions
> (158-159 CR timetable). Here's a sample:
>
> Trained Nurses, Midwives %25
> Bonafide professional enertaining parties %50
> Amateur Artistcs alone or in group %75 (II & SL class, 50%
in 1st)
> Unemployed youths appearing in interviews for seeking jobs %50
> I can't believe anybody's actually been able to get these concessions!
There is a procedure for getting each one of these discounts.
The unemployed youth getting 50% discount is only when they get an
interview call from a govt. department or Public Sector Undertaking.
But in general it is very difficult to get even standard discounts
like students' discount. It is very difficult to get the forms
only, which are supposedly free. My students tell me that those
studying in private colleges have no such problem because the
college can pay some money and charge that from the students.
Institute being a govt one, cannot pay. So our PRO will talk
to some officer. With difficulty we will get some forms.
Since the number of students going on vacation is much
larger, they try to find students who are going to same place
by same train, and returning by same itinery. And names of
all such students will be put on one form. It is a total mess.
I wonder why Railways can't simply create a web site, and put these
forms on that site, or let us make photocopies of these forms.
-dheeraj
From: Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya <>
Subject: Re: What is a rake
Date: 01 Nov 1998 07:58:10 -0500
Long time back, I was told in the induction course at Railway Staff
College, Vadodra, that a rake is a set of coupled coaches or wagons
without an engine. So, you have a rake for say Coromondal stationed at
the
siding. When the time comes for Coromondal to make its run, an engine is
attached to the rake and it becomes a train.
Nalinaksha Bhattacharyya
<A HREF="http://finance.commerce.ubc.ca/~bhatta">http://finance.commerce.ubc.ca/~bhatta</A>
"The lifestyle of the Indian elite is amazing...I've never seen
such opulence even in America"---Noam Chomsky in New Delhi in 1996
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Through trains in Termini
Date: 01 Nov 1998 09:04:57 -0500
Gang !
I was thinking about how many through trains use termini like Chennai
Central or Howrah. Let me simplify. There are many trains which come to
Chennai central on their dead end platform, then a loco is attached on
the other end and then the trains goes elsewhere. I have seen a Rajdhani
(Trivandrum - NDLS I think) do this at Chennai before the advent of
Konkan rail. This sort of trains never have used the Mumbai CSTM. Can
the gang list any other trains and termini which fit this description ?
Apurva
From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>
Subject: Re: What is a rake
Date: 01 Nov 1998 15:54:19 -0500
Dear Apurva,
How can resist the invitation? Actually, I'm very busy right now, so
this will have to be brief.
"Rake" is perfectly good English English, and is quite commonly used
(though not being a professional railwayman, I can't say how common a
term
it is down in the sidings!) Just as in India, it means a made-up train
or a
set formation of carriages or wagons, WITHOUT a loco. It can also be
used
for EMUs or DMUs. Several English railways kept loco-hauled stock in
sets
(3, 4, 5, or 6 cars, rarely more) and one or more sets together could be
called a rake. If it were used to apply to a set kept together for a
specific purpose it would often be qualified: "dedicated rake" or "fixed
rake" or even "Golden Arrow rake", "Yorkshire Pullman rake".
Annie's comment is interesting, because the word "cut" is sometimes
used -- in marshalling (classification) yards, for example -- but it
will
mean PART of a train, as in "a cut of wagons", meaning a block cut out
from
a longer train. Transatlantic differences!
Iain Fraser's "formation" is of course equivalent to Annie's
"consist."
When it comes to why U.S. terminology is different from English, I
think the answer lies in the early divergence of U.S. practice from
English.
This was partly a product of the Boston Tea Party and subsequent events,
partly a result of murtual hostility, and partly a consequence of the
fact
that the USA was settled by many people for whom English was not their
first
language -- in fact German very nearly became the official US language!
Swivelbusch's fascinating book The Railway Journey deals with some of
these
issues.
Hope that helps -- back to editing.
Ken Walker
-----Original Message-----
From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email
To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email Alan Sponberg <sponberg@selway.email
Dr.
Ken .J. Walker <kjw_meh@powerup.email
Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 5:51
Subject: What is a rake
You wrote (snipped)
Please define the word 'Rake' for Alan. Why is it used only here and not
>in the US ? First of all is is only queen's english which the
>commonwealth understands (Dr. K - your comments required) or is it
>Hinglish (like challan, lakh, crore) i.e. Hindi words which are now
>standard Indian English terminology.
From: Prakash Tendulkar <>
Subject: Fairy Queen v/s Sindh
Date: 01 Nov 1998 16:50:20 -0500
Looking at Hugh Hughes' book, Indian Locomotives Part 1 under
section for GIP Railways, SINDH, GIPR #44 was acquired during 1856-7.
The inaugural train rolled on VT-Thane route on April 16, 1853 so
it certainly could not be hauled by SINDH or her sister engines
made by Kitson. (The railway was opened to public two days on
April 18, 1853, Ref: History of Bombay Suburban Railways by
Dr. A.K.Arora))
The first 8 engines were made by Vulcan Foundry in 1851-2 for
Sterling Pounds 1675 each. The first one was named FALKLAND and
became operational on February 23, 1852. They had 2-4-0 layout like
Kitsons. Of these, 1,2 and 8 went to BBCIR in 1862-3.
The book shows a picture of SINDH which resembles close to similar
loco made by Sharp, Stewart & Co. in 1865.
Reading this book, I found a minor error. During introduction,
author writes that maker of first loco is unknown. He contradicts this
statement under GIPR section, quoting the name and price quoted by
each bidder.
Prakash
From: Vdate <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 19:16:37 -0500
rake is consist... a permanent set of coaches which forms a train minus
the
engine. Some other equivalent words are (American equivalent in
parenthesis)
: driver (engineer), platform (track), hamal(redcap), diner (dining
car),wc(restroom), restroom (waiting room),booking office (ticket
office),
ring (call on phone). Readers, please add.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: [Fwd: What is a rake
Date: 01 Nov 1998 20:59:39 -0500
Some notes from Richard - Apurva
FyffesFL@aol.email wrote:
> the word " rake " is good english - I have seen and heard it used in
Ireland
> and the UK, also in ancient correspondence regarding the formerly
british-
> owned railways in south america. " Formation " seems to have been
borrowed
> from a military term.
> No idea of the etimology of rake.
>
> best regards to all
>
> richard yudin
From: Anne Ogborn <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 01 Nov 1998 21:25:54 -0500
Vdate@aol.email wrote:
> rake is consist... a permanent set of coaches which forms a train
minus the
> engine. Some other equivalent words are (American equivalent in
parenthesis)
> : driver (engineer), platform (track), hamal(redcap), diner (dining
> car),wc(restroom), restroom (waiting room),booking office (ticket
office),
> ring (call on phone). Readers, please add.
US Indian
fireman asst. driver
porter kuli
car attendent guard
ticket taker TTE
based homed (sometimes "shopped", as in
"shopped out of
Bakersfield")
east/west up/down
car wagon/van
truck bogie
hired out inducted
Question - in the US there's an engineer (usually a very junior
engineer) whose
job
is to move engines about the yard and roundhouse area. We call this
person a
"hostler" - what's the equivilant Indian term?
Also, what's the pointed iron grill on the lower front of a steam engine
we call
a "pilot" or "cowcatcher" called?
My wallpaper's a WP4 that has one.
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 02 Nov 1998 00:52:32 -0500
> Question - in the US there's an engineer (usually a very junior
engineer) whose
> job
> is to move engines about the yard and roundhouse area. We call this
person a
> "hostler" - what's the equivilant Indian term?
He is the engine 'turner' - a term from the days a steam loco would
have to be led
on a turntable or a triangle to face the other way. Nowadays an engine
turner just
sits at one place - his job is to assign a particular loco to a
particular train.
There are 'shunters' under him who constantly move the locos about from
tight spots
within the loco shed to clear the platform line for 'that' loco.
> Also, what's the pointed iron grill on the lower front of a steam
engine we call
> a "pilot" or "cowcatcher" called?
> My wallpaper's a WP4 that has one.
What is a WP4 ? Surely you do not mean the WAP 4 ? Please put up the jpg
of this loco
for all of us to have a look.The 'grill' is known as the 'Cattle guard'
- used very
frequently in India !
Apurva
From: Apurva Bahadur <>
Subject: Re: Homing at Chennai
Date: 02 Nov 1998 04:59:08 -0500
>
>
> For passenger trains, the same number can be used for passenger trains
> in different parts of the country. To differentiate between them,
> normally two letters are added which are usually the first letter
> of the end-points. For example a passenger train between Lucknow
> and Kanpur may be numbered as LK21.
This is true only of some railways. The Central Rail has some 3 digit
numbers
like 327 Dn etc but all others are four digits like 1325/1547/1625 etc.
Apurva
From: Madhav Acharya <>
Subject: Re: Thanks for the help!
Date: 02 Nov 1998 05:09:13 -0500
Hi Apurva
I'm writing from Delaware, US. I scanned the pics
and you can check them out at
<A HREF="http://www.che.udel.edu/~acharya/trains.html">http://www.che.udel.edu/~acharya/trains.html</A>
Happy viewing !
Madhav
From: C.L.Zeni <>
Subject: Plinthed loco at SCR HQ Re: Thanks for the help!
Date: 02 Nov 1998 05:59:16 -0500
Madhav Acharya wrote:
>
> Hi Apurva
>
> I'm writing from Delaware, US. I scanned the pics
> and you can check them out at
>
> <A HREF="http://www.che.udel.edu/~acharya/trains.html">http://www.che.udel.edu/~acharya/trains.html</A>
>
> Happy viewing !
> Madhav
What, pray tell, is that plinthed loco? It appears to be an outside
framed 4-8-4 on meter gauge (or narrower?) track. Help!
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
From: Balasubramanian, Vijay <>
Subject: Re: My Trip to Jamshedpur
Date: 02 Nov 1998 06:45:56 -0500
>
> Unless it goes all the way to New Delhi by Diesels like
> Karnatak Exp (is
> this true ?)The Mumbai division Mail/Express drivers are not
Not really. I last spotted the Karnataka Exp. near Agra during my WAP3
loco. trip (summer of '95) and it was elec. hauled. I believe it
changes
between diesel and elec. at Bhusaval (could someone confirm this?)
>
> > Improving its timings shouldn't be a big problem, since the present
> > schedule is pathetic. How I wish they would also consider removing
> > certain unnecessary halts such as Chakradharpur, Kharagpur
> and Raipur
> > and give it a genuine superdeluxe status.
>
> Kharagpur is the divisional HQ of the SER so a halt in a
> must. Howrah is
> under Eastern Rail and the SE services from HWH actually home to
> Kharagpur.
> So a halt at KGP is a must. Chakardharpur is a station where staff
> change
> (drivers, ticket checkers etc) although how many passengers use this
> station
> is debatable. Raipur is also a gig district level town with a lots of
> administration (not railways) located here. As a matter of
I beg to differ! While being fully aware of the importance of
Kharagpur,
Chakradharpur and Raipur, I still maintain that a genuine Rajdhani-type
exp.
should be designed with minimal, well spaced-out halts (atleast 3-5 hrs.
running
time between consecutive halts), especially since we have the daily
superfast
Gitanjali to take care of intermediate halts. Good examples are the
Rajdhanis
from Delhi to Mumbai, Trivandrum, Chennai, Secunderabad, and Guwahati.
IMHO, an
authentic Mumbai-Howrah superdeluxe train should not have more than the
following
halts - Bhusaval, Nagpur, Durg, Bilaspur, Raurkela and Tatanagar. Note
that
the
Gitanjali, at its inception, had the same halt pattern as above except
that
it
used to skip Bilaspur and halt at Akola instead. In fact, the Gitanjali
used to
skip Kharagpur for its first seven operational years. The Coromandel
Exp.
used to
ignore it for five years; the Bhubhaneswar Raj. still ignores it.
Regards,
Vijay