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From: Baneth <>

Subject: DRAWINGS OF YP AND YG LOCOMOIVES

Date: 21 Nov 1998 01:26:04 -0500


I am a model engineer in Melbourne Australia and a great fan of Indian
Rail. I am building two Bagnall Loacomotive sfrom Pujab coal, Hughes
book has photos of them in Narrow Guage book.
I hav drawings and a full set of castings to build a 5" or 127mm 1/8
scale live steam locomotive of Indian Metre guage WD class. These are
also called MAWD.
Excellent drawings by a very experieinced engineer are available from
a Queensland source. This class of engine operated in queensland. the
Model willbe 2.4mtres long or 7 ft.
I would love access to YP and YG drawings. I can help with the WD
drawings and castings.

Ron Baneth CPA Charted Accountant-here
Baneth@netspace.email

From: Baneth <>

Subject: INTRODUCING RON

Date: 21 Nov 1998 01:28:49 -0500


Dear Guys and Ladies,

Introducing Ron, a fellow Indian train lover, especially Indian War
department locos, and survivor of two steam chasing back pack tours of
India.

Enjoy the E mail group tremendously> This E mail was written by my
wife who is exasperated at trying to find her one meagre E mail in the
30 daily offerings. Ron can now do his own e mail.

Cheers,

Ron

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred

Date: 21 Nov 1998 12:55:01 -0500




Jayant S wrote:

> > facility. Caboose is taken off
> > (rare anymore - usually there's a "fred", rear end device).
> What exactly is a fred ? I suppose it must be a
> more substantial device than the "Last Vehicle"
> board used on IR trains ?
>
> --
> Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> --

Jayant - thought others might wonder, thought i'd reply on list

A Fred is a "flashing rear end device"

It mounts atop the coupler of the last car. There's a flashing red light
in it,
a sensor that detects vibration (derailment), a sensor for brake pipe
pressure,
and a transmitter to send the sensor readings to the engine.
In the engine is a receiver with meters for the sensor readings.

Basicly, it's a glorified "Last Vehicle" board.

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: More fantasy trains

Date: 21 Nov 1998 13:12:05 -0500


Vijay,

While I am very impressed that such fantasy trains can be designed by
you and the others including their names, I would like to see these
with the realistic departure and arrival timings at the various
stations. Then the availability of slots and paths would have to be
taken into consideration. Once these details are in place, I would
print a copy and give it to the Pune division PRO.

Apurva

Balasubramanian, Vijay wrote:

> Here are a few of the trains that I had designed a while back. Some
of them
> have already come true although in a degraded form. Others are not
> 'practical' anymore since Rajdhani-type trains may take their place.

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: KR time table news + SR tt

Date: 21 Nov 1998 13:12:33 -0500


Gang,

I have just met the amiable Rajan Matthews who was in Pune for some
work. He has a KR timetable ready with him in a spreadsheet format. It
will be up on the net within no time at all. I could scan the yellow
pages in the CR tt (which are the KR pages) if you want. Let me know.

What Rajan has with him is the new SR time table. It is the model
timetable for the entire IR. It is thinner and larger in format, has
crystal clear colour (3 maps !) maps, is printed on semi gloss paper
and is a joy to just have. I hope by next year the rest of the zones
also come out with a similar time table.
Kumar had sent a mail earlier about the excellent SR tt and I can see
what he means.

Apurva

Balasubramanian, Vijay wrote:

> > folks,
> >
> > is there some site out there where i can get the
> > konkan railway time table from?
> >
> > thanks
> > -karthikraju.
> >
> There used to be a site:
<A HREF="http://www.goenkar.com/info/schedules/krail.html">http://www.goenkar.com/info/schedules/krail.html</A>
> but the link is not valid anymore. You could try using the online
timetable
> from the <A HREF="http://www.indianrailway.com/railway">http://www.indianrailway.com/railway</A> page.
>
> Vijay

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end

Date: 21 Nov 1998 22:08:26 -0500


Jayant - thought others might wonder, thought i'd reply on list

A Fred is a "flashing rear end device"

It mounts atop the coupler of the last car. There's a flashing red light
in it, a sensor that detects vibration (derailment), a sensor for brake pipe
pressure, and a transmitter to send the sensor readings to the engine.

How is the FRED powered ? Is there an axle mounted generator (self generating) or does it have it's rechargable cell pack which runs down in 8 -12 hours ?
Some wagons like milk tankers which are attached at the end of a passenger train have an electric lamp as a tail marker, but it requires to be connected to the battery posts of the last passenger coach. Other rakes (which do not have batteries/generator)  use a kerosene lamp.

If I may list the function of the brake van in a train - please add / correct if needed.

To protect the rear of the train in the event of an unsheduled stop with detonators, lamps, flags etc
Assist in braking and parking the train using the air/vaccum brake line and the mechanical screw brakes
Maintain the tail lamp
Stopping the rake in case of the coupling failure (parting) during run
Keeping a timing and a log of activity

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end

Date: 21 Nov 1998 22:16:25 -0500


> 2. Assist in braking and parking the train using the air/vaccum
> brake line and the mechanical screw brakes
The Indian Railways Driver/Guard rulebook states that
in the event of the danger whistle code being sounded
by the driver, the guard is required to make a full
handbrake application to help stop the train. I wonder
if this would work at all with something like a 2000 ton
freighter, given the light construction of IR brake vans,
substantially smaller than the caboose in America.

Come to think of it, how many types of brake vans exist
in India ? I have never seen a narrow gauge brake van: do
these exist, and does anyone have a pic ?


--
Jayant S
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: ZDM 5 shed

Date: 22 Nov 1998 00:13:07 -0500


Gang !

I have an issue of Indian Rail mag which has a picture of a cute ZDM 5
NG loco with a shed code of ' ETI ' - Which shed is it ?
There is no other zonal marking on the loco.
It this Etwari near Nagpur ?

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end

Date: 22 Nov 1998 08:17:39 -0500




Jayant S wrote:

> > 2. Assist in braking and parking the train using the air/vaccum
> > brake line and the mechanical screw brakes
> The Indian Railways Driver/Guard rulebook states that
> in the event of the danger whistle code being sounded
> by the driver, the guard is required to make a full
> handbrake application to help stop the train. I wonder
> if this would work at all with something like a 2000 ton
> freighter,

Even I wonder what a puny 27 tonne brake van (weight of the larger air
braked caboose - the vacuum braked van is even smaller) drag down a 2000
or even 3000 tonne rake. The doubt is as far as the mechanical brakes
are concerned, but then those are only for 'stabling' or parking the
rake. Even with the mechanical brakes fully on, the railway gang uses
pieces of ballast stones under the wheel as wedges, just in case !
Afterall the lever could be fully screwed in but the brake blocks may
not be biting. The vacuum or air brakes operated from the caboose would
operate all over the rake and the train would stop eventually.
I have heard from other mail /express guards who began their careers as
guards on really slow freight trains that the stability of a brake van
is really pits and the advice they got from their mentors is - hold on
something all the the time.
I wonder if you gang have witnessed the spectacular starts of freight
trains, like at the South Daund yard towards Solapur ? The trainee and
new drivers (with lots of young blood ?) on freight power start their
locos with lots of strong throttle treatment. The loco takes off and
the train slowly starts moving. But the tail end of the train is still
standing still while the front end is moving. Once the slack of the
coupling runs out, the car is pulled from standstill to a rolling speed
within a wagon length. Now these are wagons with freight in them but at
the tail end there is a human being who would have to put up with these
violent starts after many stops. Such a strong driving style is
actually bad form and is not encouraged but new drivers do it all the
time. I have seen careless but agile bystanders duck under a wagon which
was about to move just to save that long walk around the end or the
endless wait for the train to start moving. I must confess I have done
this crossing under the standing freight rake a couple of time is my
distant youth - but no more. I would not even stand in the shadow of a
freight rake any more - just in case it derails on me !


> iven the light construction of IR brake vans,
> substantially smaller than the caboose in America.

American caboose are eight wheeler (true ?) while Indian caboose is
always four wheeler.

> Come to think of it, how many types of brake vans exist
> in India ?

The BG has a vacuum braked wagon and a 20 % longer air braked wagon. The
MG brake van (very cute !) is vacuum braked only. Just a diversion -
were there any air braked MG stock at any time - Leave the Chennai MG
EMUs out of this list. Were the crack MG trains of India - Pink City,
Chetak, Pandian, Vaigai etc ever air braked ?
As far as the NG rakes are concerned - were there any brake vans ?
Frankly I do not know, maybe a quick visit to Meeraj or Kurduwadi would
have our answer. Any Solapur division driver found on the Pune platform
would be also able to tell. They have worked the Barsi Light NG trains
before promotion to BG .
I have seen eight wheeler NG freight wagons (with American style 'bow
end {my term} bogie/ trucks at Daund (for the DD - Baramati NG) and four
wheeler wagons at Meeraj with work plates dated in the 1910s. Harsh in
NDLS please lift these coaches from Miraj into your loving care.
One more trivia - my daughter might get her admission in a school called
Gurukul - whose classroom/play area is actually a retired MG or a BG
coach and the school is modeled after a platform on which these coaches
stand. Will get you pics soon.

Apurva

> I have never seen a narrow gauge brake van: do
> these exist, and does anyone have a pic ?
>
> --
> Jayant S
> --

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end

Date: 22 Nov 1998 10:23:30 -0500




Apurva Bahadur wrote:

>
>
>> Jayant - thought others might wonder, thought i'd reply on list
>>
>> A Fred is a "flashing rear end device"
>>
>> It mounts atop the coupler of the last car. There's a flashing red
>> light
>> in it, a sensor that detects vibration (derailment), a sensor for
>> brake pipe
>> pressure, and a transmitter to send the sensor readings to the
>> engine.
>
> How is the FRED powered ? Is there an axle mounted generator (self
> generating) or does it have it's rechargable cell pack which runs down
> in 8 -12 hours ?

I think it's a rechargeable pack. It's certainly not an axle generator,
as it can be clamped onto any coupler.

>
> Some wagons like milk tankers which are attached at the end of a
> passenger train have an electric lamp as a tail marker, but it
> requires to be connected to the battery posts of the last passenger
> coach. Other rakes (which do not have batteries/generator) use a
> kerosene lamp.
>
> If I may list the function of the brake van in a train - please add /
> correct if needed.
>
> 1. To protect the rear of the train in the event of an unsheduled
> stop with detonators, lamps, flags etc
> 2. Assist in braking and parking the train using the air/vaccum
> brake line and the mechanical screw brakes
> 3. Maintain the tail lamp
> 4. Stopping the rake in case of the coupling failure (parting)
> during run
> 5. Keeping a timing and a log of activity
>
>
> Apurva

US practice at least, the caboose also served as an observation point -
looking forward for hot bearings, dragging
equipment, or derail. Looking aft for telltale mark on track from
leaking tank, dragging equipment, or derail.

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: FRED

Date: 22 Nov 1998 10:37:44 -0500


Fred is being used in all Indian trains on the trunk routes. These were first tried on the two original Rajdhanis and later fitted to the EMUs and subsequently to a majority of passenger trains running through night.
 
It is a misnomer to call `Fred' a glorified `LV(last vehicle) board, I would feel. The LV board being no good after dark, in fog or when it is raining and is often missed. Fred gives a signal to the motorman(driver), the guard and the various signal and pointsmen about the the air/vaccum brakes working position, the rake being intact etc., something which a LV board is hardly capable of.
 
The old red lamp posted at the last vehicle for night was no good as it was no better than the bicycle reflector. Quite a few freak rear end collisions, derailment and brake failures can be avoided if this device is used and read properly.
 

From: Anne O. <>

Subject: Re: FRED

Date: 22 Nov 1998 14:49:40 -0500


Harsh Vardhan wrote:
>
> Fred is being used in all Indian trains on the trunk routes. These
> were first tried on the two original Rajdhanis and later fitted to the
> EMUs and subsequently to a majority of passenger trains running
> through night.
>  
> It is a misnomer to call `Fred' a glorified `LV(last vehicle) board, I
> would feel. The LV board being no good after dark, in fog or when it
> is raining and is often missed. Fred gives a signal to the
> motorman(driver), the guard and the various signal and pointsmen about
> the the air/vaccum brakes working position, the rake being intact
> etc., something which a LV board is hardly capable of.
>  
> The old red lamp posted at the last vehicle for night was no good as
> it was no better than the bicycle reflector. Quite a few freak rear
> end collisions, derailment and brake failures can be avoided if this
> device is used and read properly.
>  
> HARSH

OK - it's obviously much more capable.

There's an abiding distrust of the things on the US railroads -
crews would feel safer with a real person back there.

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: FRED

Date: 22 Nov 1998 19:04:59 -0500


Anne wrote:
> There's an abiding distrust of the things on the US railroads -
> crews would feel safer with a real person back there.

If I remember correctly, the reason cabooses (cabeese ??)
went out of use in the US was because of the slack in
the couplings of long frieghters: causeing the chap in
the back to be shaken around quite dangerously. How serious
is this problem on Indian trains which are usually shorter ?

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: MG Query

Date: 22 Nov 1998 21:12:09 -0500


Just wondering: are there any large MG yards
left on IR ?
What power do they use for shunting ?
On the NFR WD class Mikados survived till
the mid-80's. Anyone know if steam is still
left in a few yards ?
--
Jayant S
--

From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>

Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end

Date: 22 Nov 1998 21:51:18 -0500


Hi Jayant and everyone,
Yes, NG brake vans exist/existed. There are or were some 4wh
passenger-type ones (ELRs) at Dabhoi fairly recently; the SER lines have
quite a few dinky little freaight brake vans complete with end
verandahs; I
have seen them on Raipur-Dhamtari, Naupada-Gunupur, and I think
elsewhere.
There was much more variety about 70 years ago (bit before my time,
though .
. .) Often, trains were mixed, so a passenger brake van was provided,
frequently with passenger accommodation. Generally a TLR, but a lot of
lines
had FTLRs especially for this sort of work.
Don't forget that brake vans were orginally provided so as to add
to
the engine brake power in an otherwise unbraked train. Before about
1880,
even some passenger trains were unbraked, and it was only the invention
of
the first reliably automatic brake, by Westinghouse in 1872, that made
working trains at speed safe. In Britain, unbraked goods trains lasted
into
the 1960s, with only engine brakes and a 20T (or so) brake van to hold
them.
Steep grades were often descend only after all the wagon hand brakes had
been set firmly ON ("pinned down") and there were often huge boards at
the
tops of gradients saying ALL TRAINS TO STOP AND PIN DOWN BRAKES. Even,
then,
it must have been heart in mouth! There was nothing like the Bhore Ghat
in
UK, needless to say.
Cheers
Ken Walker

-----Original Message-----
From: Jayant S <sank@telco.email
To: IR List <irfca@cs.email iti@giaspn01.email
<iti@giaspn01.email
Date: Sunday, 22 November 1998 5:48
Subject: Re: Query: Fred and function of the rear end


>> 2. Assist in braking and parking the train using the air/vaccum
>> brake line and the mechanical screw brakes
>The Indian Railways Driver/Guard rulebook states that
>in the event of the danger whistle code being sounded
>by the driver, the guard is required to make a full
>handbrake application to help stop the train. I wonder
>if this would work at all with something like a 2000 ton
>freighter, given the light construction of IR brake vans,
>substantially smaller than the caboose in America.
>
>Come to think of it, how many types of brake vans exist
>in India ? I have never seen a narrow gauge brake van: do
>these exist, and does anyone have a pic ?
>
>
>--
>Jayant S
>--
>

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: ghat

Date: 22 Nov 1998 22:05:48 -0500


while we're doing definitions, what's a "ghat" in a RR context? I know
it as a river bank,
especially one with steps going into the water.

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: ghat

Date: 22 Nov 1998 22:19:24 -0500


Anne wrote:
> while we're doing definitions, what's a "ghat" in a RR context? I
know
> it as a river bank,
> especially one with steps going into the water.

Generally means "gradient", I think.

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: ghat

Date: 22 Nov 1998 23:09:00 -0500




Anne Ogborn wrote:

> while we're doing definitions, what's a "ghat" in a RR context? I
know
> it as a river bank,
> especially one with steps going into the water.

The 'steps leading to river' definition of the ghat has no relevance in
the
railway (or road) context. A ghat is a mountain road from a level track
to
another level track. The correct english word may be 'incline'. A ghat
requires critical driving and train handling skills both while climbing
as
well as descending the ghat. The gang may attempt a definition of an
incline, a pass and a cutting while working out the equivalent
Hindustani
word. Words like 'Dhalan' 'Chadhan' are the same as Ghat.
As the case with many ghats the line which climbs the ghat is usually
the
'down' line. This is due to the divisional HQs like Mumbai etc being
located at the coastal plains. The Bhore ghat and the Thull ghat on the
lines away from Mumbai CSTM are 1 in 33 at some places. But these are
not
the steepest train ghats in the country. Any idea which are the steepest
?
Briganza ghat (Castle Rock - Kulem) , and the Sakleshpur - Subrayamanya
Road ghat are some of the famous ghats on the Western coast.

Apurva

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: MG Query

Date: 22 Nov 1998 23:09:31 -0500


On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Jayant S wrote:

> Just wondering: are there any large MG yards
> left on IR ?
> What power do they use for shunting ?
> On the NFR WD class Mikados survived till
> the mid-80's. Anyone know if steam is still
> left in a few yards ?
> --
> Jayant S
> --
>

Hi Jayant,

Appu, Sarosh, Shriniwas and myself are going to Wankaner and Jetalsar
because steam is still very much alive there.
==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: While on the subject of a brake van

Date: 22 Nov 1998 23:20:31 -0500


> . .) Often, trains were mixed, so a passenger brake van was provided,
> frequently with passenger accommodation. Generally a TLR, but a lot of
lines
> had FTLRs especially for this sort of work.

Many NG passenger brake vans have a dog / animal/ pet cage in them.
Actually all brake vans have a cage but it is inside the compartment.
The NG cage is accessible from the platform. Such a cage can be seen
pictured in "No problems Sahib", the Gujrath NG section.
While on the subject of the brake van - note that there is no privacy
in the toilet in passenger brake van. There is a clear glass window
from which a guard with his pants down could observe the vacuum gauge.
This loo is used by all the railway employees, the drivers for one
disappear inside these as soon as a longer stop arrives.
The Rajdhani power car (genset + brake van) has a an air conditioned
guard's compartment, although the bunk space for the genset crew is
not air conditioned.
How many brake vans have glass windows on the end to see the track
going by - come to think of it, I have not seen this variety for many
days now.

Apurva

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