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From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 05:54:19 -0500


> The driver has a very clear view, so hitting one of these poor souls
is
> particularly traumatic for the drivers in the control cabs. This has
> actually become a point of some concern for the RR.

Ha Ha,

We in India do better than that ! Atleast 8 - 20 poor souls die in
Mumbai in the Central & Western corridors DAILY. Most come under the
wheels of the EMUs whose 'motorman' also has an extremely clear view.
Please explain the point of concern about the trauma about the clear
view and not so clear view.
Okay, one problem I see in the double decker EMUs is the sheer volume of
people trying to get in and leave in the 30 seconds stop. Double decker
coaches in the past were quite difficult to exit and enter in the crowd.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: About 13th. (fwd)

Date: 09 Sep 1998 06:00:44 -0500


>
>
> PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
> TEL :5773535/3636
> EXT :4226/4232/4237
>
> Hi Appu,
> The meeting for 13th is fixed and we will be arriving from Mumbai by
the
> Deccan Express which arrives at Karjat at 9.00 am approximately.
Viraf
> and myself would like to be in Mumbai by 2.00 p.m. as we have some
other
> work here. for those coming from Poona you all can catch 1010 up
Singhad
> express which departs Poona at 6.05 am. Please confirm via return
mail.
>
> Poras.

Ok Poras,

I have talked to Jayant and he is not free on the 13th. Dinyar will be
coming as is Ajit Palkar. We will be on the 1010 Up Sinhagad Exp or 1026
Up Pragati Exp and will return by the 1617 Karjat Pune shuttle or 1009
Sinhagad.

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Walkie Talkies

Date: 09 Sep 1998 06:06:06 -0500


Hi Gang !

On a visit to the station I found that the many drivers and guards now
carry walkie talkies with them. I saw the driver and guard of Shatabdi
Exp as well as of the Mumbai CSTM - Nagarcoil express and they were
talking on the walkie talkies. I will find out whether this is a driver
- guard system or a open network including the section controller. A
step in the right direction.

I also saw after many days absence a WCM1 (no. 20068) on the 6530 Up
Udyan Express. In my opinion, the grace and the majesty of this loco
easily makes it the queen of the DC fleet. Even today when it is close
to retirement.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Progress about the timetables

Date: 09 Sep 1998 06:10:19 -0500


Attn: Time table seekers,

I have already procured the Trains at a glance, the South Central and
the Mumbai Suburban timetables for the time table seekers. I am waiting
for the Central and Western in a few days (weeks ?) time. At the end of
it all I may have 2 - 3 sets spare sets of time tables so let me know if
there are takers.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 07:22:15 -0500



> We in India do better than that ! Atleast 8 - 20 poor souls die in
> Mumbai in the Central & Western corridors DAILY. Most come under the
> wheels of the EMUs whose 'motorman' also has an extremely clear view.
> Please explain the point of concern about the trauma about the clear
> view and not so clear view.

I think I heard on this list that even in IR, somebody
dies by coming under the train, the driver of that train
is given a few days' leave to recover from the trauma.

-dheeraj
--------------
Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413
(Fax)
Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email

From: Sachin P Keshavan <>

Subject: Re: Walkie Talkies

Date: 09 Sep 1998 08:13:40 -0500


Hi,
I think the Walkie Talkies are connected to the Signal cabin
too. In
the 6526 Bangalore Kanyakumari Exp, I have seen the driver carrying the
Walkie Talkie. I heard him calling the cabin to give him the signal. The

yard master and some signal men to carry walkie talkies with them. So I
think the driver, the guard and the station staff, might be on the same
walkie talkie channel for communicating with each other. Of course the
running staff will lose contact with the station staff, when the train
crosses the walkie talkie communication range. I found walkie talkie
being used at the Palghat Jn. (PGT) too. There the RPF constable too had

walkie talkies.
It should be noted that, in both these stations when the train
was
about to leave, the guard had to wave the green flag/torch. In the same
way at Erode Jn, I found out another way of the yard master
communicating with the points men and signal men. Loud speakers were
placed all over the yard, and announcements were made on them. I
specifically heard an announcement. It was something like this
"Attention TXR staff. Beware of the Electric Loco parked in Road No:16".

This was in Tamil, and it was at 3:30am (I was a bit sleepy), so the
phrases used might not be the exact one. Do any other junctions have
this sort of a practise.

Thanks,
Sachin.

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From: FyffesFL <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 08:20:34 -0500


there are also double-deck push-pull trains in southern florida, in a
suburban
corridor service between Miami and West Palm Beach. Diesel hauled, using
coaches apparently bought from Canada - still in the canadian green and
white
livery

From: Prakash Tendulkar <>

Subject: Trauma and drivers

Date: 09 Sep 1998 09:14:32 -0500


> I think I heard on this list that even in IR, somebody
> dies by coming under the train, the driver of that train
> is given a few days' leave to recover from the trauma.

Dheeraj,

Not in Mumbai suburban section. I do not know about the
other divisions.

Prakash

From: Prakash Tendulkar <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 11:45:32 -0500


Ken,

> An Indian version could copy the large end vestibules, and probably
> (even if width had to be reduced, which may not be necessary) could
> support 3+3 seating in the DD section.

I do not know how familiar you are with overcrowding in suburban
section in Mumbai (Bombay). Current bench seat for three, actually
accommodates four. People stand not only in aisles but also between
the seats, right in front of you. If you happen to stand in aisle
between the doors, you need not hold the handle on the bar attached
to ceiling. There is no likelihood that you will be able to stir
even a fraction of an inch.

The trains carry passengers more than 4 times their rated capacity.
Traction motors get so overloaded that since mid 60s, WR disconnected
inductive shunts from all their EMUs. And if you are driving one, you
may see a tag in driving cab indicating one motorcoach has a pair of
disconnected, defective motors which means when you move master
controller from "shunt" to "series" (which is actually from series to
series parallel), within a second or two, motors will be running
in parallel without moving master controller to parallel position.
You have to keep master controller oscillating between series and
shunt to keep the motors running in series parallel, till you are
ready to go in parallel.

So double deck trains mean far more passenger load that track and
traction equipment are capable to handle. A 12 coach "standee" train
and suburban service between WR and CR via Vasai would be a better
solution.

Prakash

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 14:53:41 -0500


Good points, Prakash. Also, I think the sheer logistics of people
getting on
and off trains the way they do on Indian suburban lines does not work at
all
with double decker trains. (I am suddenly amused by the thought of
people
scaling the walls of double decker locals as they roll into the
platform, to
try and climb through the "mysteriously broken" window to get a seat on
the
second floor).

Perhaps the only place a double-decker suburban train might be useful
would
be on some sort of flying local, i.e. skipping most regular stops.
Higher
fares, perhaps close to first-class fares, could apply, giving people
who
can afford it a fairly convenient alternative to the car for
long-distance
commutes, while avoiding the crush of taking a regular local the whole
way.
These higher fares would also keep loads on trains down, while
maintaining
gross revenue. I don't know enough about Mumbai suburban lines to know
where
this would work well, but I think something like this might be useful in
Calcutta for, say, Bardhaman-Bandel-Howrah or
Kalyani-Barrackpore-Sealdah.

Shanku

-----Original Message-----
From: Prakash Tendulkar [mailto:prakash@us.email
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 11:46 AM
To: kjw_meh@powerup.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email
Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?


Ken,

> An Indian version could copy the large end vestibules, and probably
> (even if width had to be reduced, which may not be necessary) could
> support 3+3 seating in the DD section.

I do not know how familiar you are with overcrowding in suburban
section in Mumbai (Bombay). Current bench seat for three, actually
accommodates four. People stand not only in aisles but also between
the seats, right in front of you. If you happen to stand in aisle
between the doors, you need not hold the handle on the bar attached
to ceiling. There is no likelihood that you will be able to stir
even a fraction of an inch.

The trains carry passengers more than 4 times their rated capacity.
Traction motors get so overloaded that since mid 60s, WR disconnected
inductive shunts from all their EMUs. And if you are driving one, you
may see a tag in driving cab indicating one motorcoach has a pair of
disconnected, defective motors which means when you move master
controller from "shunt" to "series" (which is actually from series to
series parallel), within a second or two, motors will be running
in parallel without moving master controller to parallel position.
You have to keep master controller oscillating between series and
shunt to keep the motors running in series parallel, till you are
ready to go in parallel.

So double deck trains mean far more passenger load that track and
traction equipment are capable to handle. A 12 coach "standee" train
and suburban service between WR and CR via Vasai would be a better
solution.

Prakash

From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 17:02:33 -0500


Dear Prakash,
I did say "maybe" and "could"! I agree that Bombay's problems are
acute, perhaps unique. I well remember coming in to VT back in 1973, and
moving near the door as the train approached the platform. My (Indian)
companion urgrently warned me away. Seconds later, a body thudded
against
the trailing vestibult windscreen, followed by others: my first sight of
the
"jumper" phenomenon.
My view is that the more engineers know of practice elsewhere, the
more
likely they are to come up with ideas of their own. It always pays to
know!
Sydney has at least two factors which make operation different from
Bombay/Calcutta and even Madras' services into Central. The first is
that
there are no dead-end termini in the central area; all trains either
traverse the underground loop, or cross the Harbour Bridge to the North
Shore. This has the effect of dispersing laoding and unloading. This
bears
on design (the second point) because, admittedly, the two-door design of
the
DD cars means that three doors are difficult if not impossible to
provide.
That was never a problem in Sydney because they never had cars with
three
side doors. It might well be a problem in India. They do get pretty
serious
crowding in Sydney, though never on the scale you describe.
As to maintenance, duff motors, etc., all one can say is build 'em
rugged, look after them well! It is important to design with crush loads
in
mind though, and it has been a common problem with equipment for India
that foreign suppliers in particular think that what's OK for them will
be
more than good enough for the colonies (we used to get this attitude
here,
too, which is one reason the Brits can't sell theiur cars here!) One
case in
point was some twenty or so years back, when electric locomotives were
being
bought from Japan, the suppliers flatly refused to believe that they
would
encounter the range of temperaatures specified by IR engineers, and
actually
brought diplomatic pressure to bear to get the specification changed!
But, back to the riginal point: double-deck cars have always been a
way
to increase track capacity -- especially in terms of available seats --
thus
avoiding additional investment in track and signalling. And that's the
essential dilemma! Maybe the engineers can find another alternative?
Cheers
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Prakash Tendulkar <prakash@us.email
To: kjw_meh@powerup.email <kjw_meh@powerup.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Thursday, 10 September 1998 4:47
Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?


Ken,

> An Indian version could copy the large end vestibules, and probably
> (even if width had to be reduced, which may not be necessary) could
> support 3+3 seating in the DD section.

I do not know how familiar you are with overcrowding in suburban
section in Mumbai (Bombay). Current bench seat for three, actually
accommodates four. People stand not only in aisles but also between
the seats, right in front of you. If you happen to stand in aisle
between the doors, you need not hold the handle on the bar attached
to ceiling. There is no likelihood that you will be able to stir
even a fraction of an inch.

The trains carry passengers more than 4 times their rated capacity.
Traction motors get so overloaded that since mid 60s, WR disconnected
inductive shunts from all their EMUs. And if you are driving one, you
may see a tag in driving cab indicating one motorcoach has a pair of
disconnected, defective motors which means when you move master
controller from "shunt" to "series" (which is actually from series to
series parallel), within a second or two, motors will be running
in parallel without moving master controller to parallel position.
You have to keep master controller oscillating between series and
shunt to keep the motors running in series parallel, till you are
ready to go in parallel.

So double deck trains mean far more passenger load that track and
traction equipment are capable to handle. A 12 coach "standee" train
and suburban service between WR and CR via Vasai would be a better
solution.

Prakash

From: Dr. Shirish Yande <>

Subject: Re: Attn: Pune Mumbai Chapter of the IRFC

Date: 09 Sep 1998 20:20:23 -0500


Dear Apoorva,

The idea of Rail enthusiast's meet is exciting.
Unfortunately you will have to drop me out since I have a full day
meeting
to attend.

I wish you all great time together.

I shall catch up with you later.

Shirish

Apurva Bahadur wrote:

> Hi Gang !
>
> The Pune - Mumbai chapter of the IRFC meets on the 13th September at
> Karjat. I have confirmation with Viraf, Porus, Shrinivas and the
Godrej
> Gang. Let us do it this time.
> Confirm outside of the mailing list. If you live in the region you are
> most welcome.
> Apurva

From: S.B.Mehta <>

Subject: Walkie Talkies

Date: 09 Sep 1998 20:20:38 -0500


I have seen the Walkie Talkies being used by drivers when they are
about to start from the shed at Bombay Central. This is definitely
used for conversing with the Control Cabin to get track clearance.


======================
Sarosh Bakhtyar Mehta
M/s. Godrej & Boyce Mfg.Co.Ltd.
Machine Tool Division
Pirojshanagar, Vikhroli,
MUMBAI 400 079
INDIA
Tel:(Office) 577 3535 / 577 3636 Extn: 3917/3907/3909
Tel:(Residence) 389 3150
Fax:(Office) 91 22 517 2229 / 91 22 518 2289
Email sarosh@godrejnet.email
=======================
Wisdom dawns only after knowledge is gained

From: Sachin P Keshavan <>

Subject: Re: Trauma and drivers

Date: 09 Sep 1998 20:33:41 -0500


> I think I heard on this list that even in IR, somebody
> dies by coming under the train, the driver of that train
> is given a few days' leave to recover from the trauma.

I don't think this practise is their in the IR. I think suicides and
hitting of people by train is quite a common incident in the IR. So if
they start giving leave for the drivers for every 'hit' then things will

become difficult.

But there has been incidents when the drivers really become upset or
even unconscious, after the hit. Mostly kids etc when they are run over
accidently, the drivers might feel very depressed. There has been
incident when the driver even fell unconsicous after his train hit three

school girls accidently. The girls did not realise that a train was
coming on the second track too. To avoid the one on the first track, the

ran into the second track.

Sachin.



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From: Dheeraj Sanghi <>

Subject: Re: Freight losses

Date: 09 Sep 1998 22:34:37 -0500



> Note also the conscious policy to "encourage elitist travel".
> What does this mean? More tourist, Rajdhani & Shatabdi trains?

It could be simply to have more AC coaches.
I believe that IR make profit on AC travel.

-dheeraj
--------------
Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413
(Fax)
Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: Walkie Talkies

Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:30:54 -0500


The DC loco WCM 1 are really the queen of the locos in the DC section. I
often see the same on the 8002 up Calcutta Mail, or the 6529/30 udyan
express. The new WCAM 3'S ARE BEING PAINTED IN THE COLOUR OF WCM
1/2/3/4/5 AND THEY REALLY LOOK SMART THEN THEIR PRESENT LIVELRY. MUMBAI
FANS CAN SEE 3 SCH LOCOS STANDING OUTSIDE V.T. STATION, AND PERHAPS ON
THE
DECCAN QUEEN AND PUNE SHATABDI. THE WR ARE GOING TO PAINT THEIR WCAM
2'S
IN RAJDHANI LIVELRY ACCORDING TO SOME OF THEIR STAFFERS. YESTERDAYS
AFTERNOON NEWSPAPER CARRIED AN ARTICLE THAT MR. RAM NAIK HAS REJECTED
THE
DEMANDS OF THE YOUTH CONGRESS COMMITTEE, REQUESTING THE RAILWAYS TO HALT
THE 2951/52,2953/54 RAJDHANI AND AK EXPRESSES AT BORIVALI STATION,
SAYING
THAT GIVING A HALT TO THESE TRAINS WOULD MEAN DELAYING 13 LOCAL TRAINS
IN THE PEAK HOURS, THEREBY HOLDING 65000 COMMUTERS TO RANSOM. HOWEVER
IN
NO CIRCUMSTANCES THE RAJDHANI OR THE A.K. SHOULD BE HALTED AT BORVALI OR
ELSE THE CHARM WILL GO. THE YOUTH CONGRESS IS GOING TO HAVE A RAIL ROKO
ON 13TH SEPT AT BORIVALI. THESE BASTARDS MUST LEARN TO REALISE THAT
THESE
ARE TRAINS WHICH ARE THE COUNTRY'S PRIDE, AND NO WAY CAN THESE TRAINS
TAKE
ADDNL HALTS. AS IT IS THEY HAVE GIVEN A NO. OF HALTS TO AK EXPRESS.

PLEASE SEND IN YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS AND LET THE DISCUSSION CONTINUE.

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: Vivek Prakash <>

Subject: Re: Trauma and drivers

Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:42:54 -0500


Prakash Tendulkar wrote:

> > I think I heard on this list that even in IR, somebody
> > dies by coming under the train, the driver of that train
> > is given a few days' leave to recover from the trauma.
>
> Dheeraj,
>

This concerns me somewhat. I think a few days leave is hardly enough to
recover from such trauma - are the motormen given counselling and
further assistance to cope with the trauma? This might explain (along
with a whole host of other things) why a lot of drivers will quit even
though the retirement age has been raised....

Vivek

From: Vivek Prakash <>

Subject: Re: Double Decker suburban trains?

Date: 09 Sep 1998 23:54:07 -0500


Apurva Bahadur wrote:

> Okay, one problem I see in the double decker EMUs is the sheer volume
of
> people trying to get in and leave in the 30 seconds stop. Double
decker
> coaches in the past were quite difficult to exit and enter in the
crowd.
>
> Apurva Bahadur

Perhaps the solution then is to have, as suggested by someone earlier,
some
sort of flyer which skips most regular stops. I also support the idea of
higher fares - maybe even higher than 1st class so that it keeps the
regular
crowds off the trains.

From: Sachin P Keshavan <>

Subject: Re: Trauma and drivers

Date: 10 Sep 1998 02:08:47 -0500


>This concerns me somewhat. I think a few days leave is hardly enough
>to recover from such trauma - are the motormen given counselling and
>further assistance to cope with the trauma? This might explain (along
>with a whole host of other things) why a lot of drivers will quit
>eventhough the retirement age has been raised....

From what I gather about the engine drivers is that they are not very
much upset when they hit a person. I think that they have become
accustomed to it (especially in the Bombay Suburban tracks). Is there
any incident in which the driver was so traumatized when he ran down a
person. The only driver I know who suffered from Trauma is Mr. Paul, the

driver of the Island Exp, which fell into a Lake in Kerala around 7-8
years back. He was so shocked that he never could drive an engine
peacefully!

Sachin.

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From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Runovers

Date: 10 Sep 1998 02:22:27 -0500


Hi Gang !

Following the thread about the 'trauma' of a driver after a run over
death - Most of the drivers do not care ! I was in the cab of a WDM 2
once when we departed a poor soul and the driver had not much reaction
at all. Our man looked at my shocked face and calmed me with a
justification that the person would have killed himself in any case -
either under this loco or some other. He justified that we actually
helped him to attain salvation ! The driver in question is not a rough
sorts - he is perfectly the sort of person you want to take home and
introduce to your family & friends. I guess he cannot afford to get
traumatized. His assistant patted me on the back to make me feel better
and asked 'You do go the butcher's shop, don't you ?".
One Mumbai division driver I knew was under pressure to change his
version to say that the man was already lying on the tracks when was he
run over (dead - pointing to murder - conspiracy etc.) rather than the
man actually committed suicide. This is something to do with insurance
claims or family honour.

Apurva Bahadur

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