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For those who are really into this, classic trains are a never ending source of fascination and reminiscing at the grand old days of yore. Alas, some of these trains are no more in existance. In some cases, where they are still running, their present day status and prestige are nowhere near what it was in those grand old days.

But most interestingly, due to non availability of data, and individuals doing their own private research and digging out data from very obscure sources as a result, vis a vis heresay and a different type of research on the same subject in a different angle, various accounts about some individual classic trains are totally contradictory! Indeed, each account may have been true at a certain period of time, but the lack of coherent data means that one is at times in a predicament as to which view is the correct one.

Here is a collection of assorted titbits about famous trains. Included here are some views from folks who did not find the data on these pages upto their liking. Also included are some accounts about other classic trains which I'd love to include here once I get more information. You will also find modules of information, some connected to trains featured here, and some not: take them as interesting titbits.

Due to the heterogenous nature of the information featured here, each one features in a 'They Said It' panel: one panel per individual.

THEY SAID IT!!

Pravin Sathe about dining cars in the good old years gone by:

The concept of Dining Car(DC) was before the concept of vestibuled trains.

Thus for ease of passengers to get in finish their meals and then head back for their resp. bogies these halts used to be given. The DC carried all throughout the journey. Co-incidentally these halts matched with some regular halts as well as technicall halts like Kasara/IGP

Incidentally as a relic of the Raj, the DC car usage was restricted to only Upper class passengers. This still continues in the only DC running on a regular train - the DQ - thankfully this is only in letter and not in spirit. Anyone can use the DC on the DQ now.

Also much before the era of internet and e mails - symbols like @ were used by Time tables on the IR for these technical / Dining Car halts etc.

Also another relic of the Raj till very recently was when trains like the Punjab Mail would halt at stns. like Nepanagar (near Itarsi) on prior applicaiton sent to Stn. Master for upper class pass. to alight and - here is the heights - their servants from the second class only.

Makes one wonder what we were upto for almost four decades after Independence.

Pravin.

THEY SAID IT!!

Ajay Banerjee expressing his reservations about some of the data regarding the Flying Mail and Frontier (Golden Temple) Mail:

One must congratulate Shankar on the huge effort he has made in order to bring out an attractive website on classic trains. However, I have serious misgivings about some of the information given there.

I have the Bradshaws of 1934 and 1942 (actually photocopies of the originals in a college library in the US) and have read all India-relevant articles in "Railway Gazette" from the late 1920s, as well as other books like "Couplings to the Khyber" which is a good history of the old NWR. Based on this:

There is no record of the Flying Mail from Delhi to Karachi in either of the Bradshaws or in any other reference. In fact, there was no through service from Delhi to Karachi. There were some trains from Delhi side to Lahore and Peshawar (Frontier Mail and GIP Peshawar Express). Anyone who wanted to go to Karachi would change to the Lahore-Karachi Mail. In 1934 and 1942 at least, this would have been the only way to go from the North to Karachi.

Thus I feel the information given about the pre-partition Flying Mail may not be reliable. If anyone has any timetable of that period they could look it up.

The GIP Peshawar Express had a link train from Jhansi to Lucknow (which presumably later became the Jhansi-Lucknow Mail which is now the Gwalior-Chhapra (Barauni?) Mail. This Peshawar Express apparently became the Dadar-Amritsar Express. In the 50s and 60s it used to run to Pathankot.

Coming to the Punjab Mail. The Howrah-Amritsar Mail ran to Lahore before partition and in the 40s was known as the Punjab Mail. It then became the HWH-ASR Mail, although the locals along the route still call it the Punjab Mail.

Anyway, the 1934 Bradshaw does not list anything remotely like the GIP service mentioned in the Punjab Mail section. In the 1942 Bradshaw there is a Bombay-Lahore Express via Bhopal, Firozpur and Kasur. This is probably a more direct ancestor of today's Punjab Mail. However, as the EIR did have a Punjab Mail in the 1940s (as mentioned above)the GIP train probably could not have the same name.

From one of the sources I read that the "Punjab Limited" was a short-lived service which the GIP started as a rival to the more glamorous Frontier Mail. As it didn't last long it doesn't appear in the timetables of 1934 and 1942.

There is supposed to be a history of the GIP published in the 1980s which may throw some light on this.

Again, I could be mistaken but anyone who has proper references from those days could comment on this.

Ajai Banerji

THEY SAID IT!!

Skandan with his verision of the above information, on which my page is based:

when i give the info re:Flying mail to shankar, I had my uncle's (who worked in Karachi- Defence Audit for a year) corroboration alone. He had been telling there was a Flying Mail from delhi to karachi. It could be true. Delhi was capital of the Raj. The premier cities in today's Pakistan i.e. Peshawar, quetta, Lahore & Karachi might have been linked to Delhi just as Madras, Bombay, Cal etc. were linked. Peshwar & quetta were also the border area states then. Karachi was the entry point for India, then. Hence it is quite probable that they could have been linked to Delhi.

During partition, many special trains were reun from delhi to Karachi(which was the capital of pak,initially) with files & staff. they also had military protection. (source : PTV 97 site).Simiklarly, I had read in "Freedom in Midnight", that a Karachi train to Delhi was the first train waylaid and attcked before it came to India with dead bodies. (The no.was also given as 9dn). After the massacare of innocents, a message in blood was splashed in the luggage van "this is an independence day gift to Nehru & Patel). In one of the books about the Raj(I forget the title),

I had also read about a train from Iran to bombay )via lahore & delhi.It is
quite probable that the Bombay-Lahore exp you have talked about could have been going to Iran, sometime back. (incidentally, the last station in Iran from
India side is Zahidan- if you see the iran link in iRFCA superlinks page). afterall, apart from my uncle, i do not have any independent corroboration.I would be happy if some body gives further evidence, as ultimately the site on
classic trains must be true and transparent.

Incidentally, if you can provide me with the xeroxes of the old bradshaw at least of 1942, i would be grateful. I am also interested in the pre-partition
rail routes of india and the trains that ran then.
With regards,
skandan

THEY SAID IT!!

Information of some of the classic trains featured here as they were in 1977 from Vijay Balasubramanian:

Wrapping up this thread, here are the rest of the 1977 IR superfasts -

Frontier Mail (superfast between Bombay Central and Delhi only)
used to skip Borivali, Bhawani Mandi
took 33 / 45 mts. more time between Bombay and Delhi
used to have a cream-brown livery

Kalka Mail (superfast between Howrah and Delhi only)
used to skip Firozabad, Babhua Rd.
took 1 hr / 1 hr. 25 mts. less time between Howrah and Delhi
used to have a cream-brown livery

GT Exp.
used to skip Vidisha, Ghoradongri, Pandhurna, Narkher, Hingaghat, Manchiryal
it used to reverse at Kazipet (instead of bypassing it and halting at
Warangal)
it used to halt at Dornakal instead of Khammam
was 1 hr. 35 mts. (Up) / 5 mts. slower
brilliant livery - blue on top and bottom, red across windows, red/white
stripes around windows

Bombay - Howrah Mail via Nagpur (lost its superfast status sometime in the
early 80s and got it back last year)
used to skip Tumsar Rd., Sakti
Up was 55 mts. faster, Dn. was 5 mts. slower
what's interesting is that the CR timetable has symbols that indicate -
enter dining car at Kalyan, leave dining car at Kasara. Does that mean that
the dining car used to close its doors outside this section?
used to have red-black livery - red on top and bottom, black across windows
surrounded by two yellow bands. Later on, this was changed to green-white.

Deccan Queen
Dn was 15 mts. faster, Up was 10 mts. faster
Up used to halt at Khandala
cream-navy blue livery

Brindavan Exp.
just three halts at Katpadi, Jolarpettai
was 30 / 40 mts. faster
green livery with white stripes above and below windows

Taj Exp.
Used to run between Agra Cant and New Delhi
Dn used to skip Raja-ki-Mandi but same running time between Agra Cant and
Nizamuddin
Up used to be 23 mts. faster
cream-blue livery - same as DQ

Panchavati Exp.
Used to skip Kalyan, Kasara (not for passengers), Devlali, Niphad, Lasalgaon
(halt for Dn. only)
Used to be 5 / 10 mts. faster.
cream-blue livery - same as DQ

AC Deluxe Exp. (now Poorva Exp.)
Used to go till Amritsar thrice a week
81/82 (via Varanasi-Gaya) used to skip Koderma, Durgapur (used to be 25 / 55
mts. slower)
103/104 (via Mirzapur-Patna) used to skip - Ara, Bakhtiyarpur, Jasidih,
Madhupur, Chittaranjan, Durgapur (used to be 20 mts. faster in Up, 35 mts.
slower in Dn)
(I just noticed that Bakhtiyarpur has been added - when did this happen?)

Nizamuddin - Cochin / Mangalore Jayanti Janata Exp. (first of the Jayanti
Janata trains)
first got merged with Kerala Exp. to emerge as the Kerala Mangala Exp. then
Mangala Exp. was carved out with a new schedule - this now goes via KR.
used to have cream-brown livery (brown on top and bottom, cream across
windows surrounded by brown stripes)

New Delhi - Muzaffarpur Jayanti Janata Exp.
re-routed via Lucknow-Gorakhpur as the Vaishali Exp. - now goes till Barauni
cream-brown livery

Bombay - Ernakulam Jayanti Janata Exp. (with one portion going to Mangalore
from Shoranur)
only J.J. Exp. to preserve its route - now goes till Kankyakumari
was 4 / 5 hours faster than present between Mumbai CST and Ernakulam

Pink City Exp. (first MG train to be introduced with 100 kmph. max. - other
MG trains that acquired this distinction are Vaigai/Pallavan Exp., Ashram,
Suryanagri, Mandor)
was 15 / 22 mts. slower than present Shatabdi between NDLS and Jaipur
used to skip Delhi Cantt

Vikramshila Exp. (Delhi - Bhagalpur)
was the first non-Rajdhani train to have a non-stop run between New Delhi
and Kanpur
couple of years later, the Sonbhadra Exp. was introduced between Delhi and
Patna with same schedule which was later renamed to Magadh Exp. Finally the
Vikramshila Exp. was merged with the above train to be called as Magadh
Vikramshila Exp. -a portion of this train goes beyond Patna till Bhagalpur.

Some surprise exclusions from the superfast status are Gomti Exp.,
AC/Paschim Exp.

Vijay

THEY SAID IT!!

Some information about the Kerala Express from railfan Gopal Ayyar: (sorry about the capitals: this mail is reproduced exactly how it was received):

I AM GOPAL AYYAR FROM NERUL NAVI MUMBAI INDIA.I AM ALSO A RAILWAY FAN ESPECIALLY OF INDIAN RAILWAYS AND REGULARLY KEEP MYSELF UPDATED ON RAILWAYS FROM UR WEBSITES.

I MYSELF HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS OF TRAINS INCLUDING THE PRESTIGIOUS TAMILNADU AND KERALA EXPRESSES WHILE I WAS AT NAGPUR BUT AFTER COMING OVER TO MUMBAI AND IN MY ENGINEERING COLLEGE DAYS AND WITH NOW PREPARATION FOR ENTRANCE EXAMS I DONT GET TIME MUCH.THEREFORE ONLY SOURCE IS UR WEBSITES.

I ALSO AGREE IN YOUR CLASSIC TRAINS SECTION THAT TAMILNADU EXPRESS IS A FABULOUS TRAIN.ALL

THE 5 FROM SOUTH IE TN,KERALAEXPRESS.KK FROM SBC,AP FROM HYD AND GT FROM MAS ALL ARE SUPER.ALSO I LIKE THE MUMBAI RAJDHANI AND FRONTIER MAIL.

SIR I DONT KNOW IF YOU KNOW THIS INFORMATION.PERHAPS U MAY BE KNOWING BUT KERALA EXPRESS SHARES THE RECORD IN INDIAN RAILWAYS FOR THE TRAIN TO HAVE THE MAXIMUM RUN IE 3058 KMS FROM NDLS TO TVC FOR A DAILY TRAIN AS HIMSAGAR AND TVC-GUWHATIEXP RUN ONLY ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK.

WHEN I REMEMBER A FEW YEARS OR A DECADE AGO IT USED TO HAVE 17 COACHES BETWEEN TVC AND PALAKKAD WITH A SINGLE WDM2 IN CHARGE.FROM PALAKKAD 8 COACHES FROM MANGALORE USED TO BE ADDED RESULTING IN THE LONG TRAIN WITH 2 WDMS AND THEN CHANGE TO WAM46P FROM AJJ AT JTJ OR SOMEDAYS A BZA LOCO TO NAGPUR FROM WHERE A JHS LOCOSHED ENGINE USED TO PULL IT UP TO DELHI.

NOW VERY OFTEN AND ON MY RECENT TRIP TO KERALA I SEE THAT A WDM2C HAULS 23 COACHES FROM TVC TO ERNAKULAM,FROM WHERE A ERODE WAP4 OR AJJ WAM 4 TAKE CHARGE.I DONT KNOW NOW IF THERE IS A CHANGE AT NAGPUR.

IF YOU SEE THE RUNNING AT VARIOUS PLACES AND BY THE TIMETABLE U WILL SEE THAT AT SOME STRETCHES IT GOES AT THE SAME RUNNING TIME AS TAMILNADU EXPRESS.

UNFORTUNATELY IT IS THE ONLY DAILY TRAIN FROM TVC TO NEWDELHI THUS IT IS FORCED TO HALT AT SOME EXTRA PLACES BUT AT ATLEAST NOT LIKE GTEXPRESS WHICH HALTS HERE AND THERE.

ALSO ANOTHER PROBLEM FOR THIS TRAIN IS THAT LIKE OTHER TRAINS ENTERING KERALA WHERE THERE ARE TOO MANY STOPS AND THE TRAINS LITERALLY CRAWL FROM CIMBATORE OR PALAKKAD ONWARDS.KERALA TRAINS PICK UP SPEED ONLY AFTER COMING OUT OF KERALA. ALL THESE TRAINS FROM SOUTH FROM THE SOUTH CAPITALS TO DELHI ARE VERY POPULAR,RUN AT GOOD SPEEDS AND ARE ALWAYS FULL.

ALSO THEY ALL MAINTAIN VERYGOOD TIME RECORDS.

AS I TOLD U EARLIER FROM NAGPUR I HAVE BOARDED THESE TRAINS AND EVEN IF THEY COME IN 2-3 HOURS LATE HAVE KNOWN TO MAKE UP ATLEAST A SUBSTANTIAL PART DUE TO THERE LONG RUNNING TIMES.ALSO FROM MUMBAI FRONTIER MAIL ALSO HAS A VERY GOOD PUNCTUALITY RECORD AND IS ANOTHER POPULAR TRAIN AFTER MUMBAI RAJDHANI.

THANKING YOU SIR ONCE AGAIN APPLAUDING YOUR AND YOUR FRIENDS IE VIJAYSUBRAMANIAM,APOORVABAHADUR AND OTHERS FOR ALL YOUR EFFORTS AND PAINS THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN WISHING AND PRAYING FOR ALL OF YOU

WITH WARM REGARDS

GOPAL AYYAR NERUL

NAVIMUMBAI

(slightly edited to ensure continuity)