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From: Anand I.S. <>

Subject: Ooty Rly elecfn

Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:33:22 -0500


Hi Harsh,

Regards. If my report is closely re-read, you will observe, I have not
mentioned elecfn. to Replace steam per se. I have only brought you the
report also, that due to rebuilds, steam will survive for another 3-5
yrs..
If at the end of their rebirth, nothing much can be done, and YAM-1s are

available due to closure of MG. elecfn. then why not they be used to
save
the rly. You see I am not against steam, though it may be my 3rd. motive

power preference.

I do agree that NRM save the steam on a priorty basis, but that does not

imply that the diesels and the elecs. get step-motherly treatment. At
least
before some of the vintage/cladssic diesels and elecs get scrapped,
efforts
to be made fdor thier preservation.

Bye for now.

anand i.s.

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From: Iain A Fraser <>

Subject: Re: wp glory revised

Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:49:37 -0500


Hi

Nice site Shankar......some really atmospheric photos in there. The
site downloaded quickly as well.......

Many thanks for your efforts

Regards
Iain

Aerolite Booktraders(UK)
Railway Book Specialists
<A HREF="http://www.aerolite.u-net.com">http://www.aerolite.u-net.com</A>

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re: [IRFCA] considering IRFCA mailing list move

Date: 02 Nov 1999 16:03:01 -0500


PG JULIAN RAINBOW wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:18:17 +0400
> From: "S.Shankar" <shankie@emirates.email
> Subject: Re: [IRFCA] considering IRFCA mailing list move
> To: acha@cs.email
> Cc: irfca@cs.email
> Reply-to: shankie@emirates.email
> All,
>
> further to what I said earlier I have just noticed that Egroup are
> claiming a perpetual license to material. As I understand it in
> the UK, although the matter is now complicated by European law,
> that copyright exists from 50 years after the death of the
> creator. I think European copyright is 75 years, so how these
> people can be claiming a perpetual licence is beyond me, well
> no its not actually, my suspicous mind is imputing base motives
> to them. I think that if any problems were to arise it would be if
> anyone wished to publish any work for commercial gain which used
> material which had been discussed here.
>
> Julian

Since the copyright being granted to them is *non-exclusive*, they can't
do
anything about whatever you happen to do with the stuff that you wrote
and hence
own the original copyright to. You could even do another non-exclusive
grant of
your copyright to another e-services organization and palce all the
material on
their web site too, or even write a book containing all the stuff that
you
constribtued here and publish it and charge a price for it, without
running
afoul of this non-exclusive grant. I think they are mostly covering
their own
rear ends, or at least think they are. At the end of the day, as you
suggested,
quite a bit of what they would like to claim won't stand in court. BTW,
I would
strike the "other intellectual property rights" part. It is a bad idea
to enter
into contracts with such open ended phrases. If they want to cover other
intellectual property rights, have them spell out which ones they have
in mind.

Just my Rs.0.02.....

Jishnu.


> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Sample Intellectual property text from egroups.com:
> >
> > You agree that upon posting any material within a group open to the
> > public on the Service, you grant eGroups, and its successors and
> > assigns, a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty free, perpetual,
> > non-revocable license under your copyrights or other intellectual
> > property rights, if any, in such material, to use, distribute,
> > display, reproduce, and create derivative works from such material
in
> > any and all media, in any manner, in whole or part, without any duty
> > to account to you. You further agree that upon posting any material
> > within a private, members-only group on the Service, you grant
> > eGroups, and its successors and assigns, a non-exclusive worldwide,
> > royalty free, perpetual, non-revocable license under your copyrights
> > or other intellectual property rights, if any, in such material to
> > distribute, display, and reproduce such material to other members of
> > that group. You also grant eGroups the right to authorize the
> > downloading and printing in whole or in part of any material that
you
> > have posted to a group on the Service, by endusers for their
personal
> > use.

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA mailing list move

Date: 02 Nov 1999 16:17:04 -0500


Dr. K.J. Walker wrote:
>
> Folks,
> I CAN see one problem, and it relates to that assignment of
copyright,
> quoted in the case of E-groups. I frequently write longish screeds on
> partiocular topics, some of which have been modified (witjh my
permission)
> and incorporated into the IRFCA website and FAQs. BUT (and this is the
rub)
> I also quite frequently "recycle" what I write, using it in other,
later
> materials with or without modification. This is quite OK at present,
since
> copyright rests with me, and has not been assigned.

Since the assignment is non-exclusive you should be able to continue
doing what
you have been doing without running afoul of the law.

> The problem is that if copyright IS assigned, someone else might
be
> able to take and use my material,

That can certainly happen, and since the terms of that licensing did not
include
the phrase "for non-commercial use only", they could even put together a
book
with your writings in it using the non-exclusive copyright granted to
them, and
sell it and make money.:-(

Ideally, I'd prefeer to see two additions:

(i) Add the phrase "derivative work may be created for non-commercial
use only"
or some such.

(ii) In all presentations of this work or any derivative work the
original
copyright notice must be preserved.

And then make sure that each message that you post has a copyright
notice tacked
onto it. That way you get credit whenever your work is used anywhere.
This is a
common tack used in the software industry in granting copyrights to
source code.

> AND, even worse, I could find myself in
> the position of having lost control of my own intellectual property.

Since the grant is non-exclusive, this is unlikely.

> I think you can see that this might be a powerful inhibiting
factor in
> contributing to full and free discussion on any site.

It could be. But you'd be amazed what sort of mindboggling things people
discuss
on these sites! They could make a fortune someday, publishing all this
stuff
protecting the identities of the participants etc.:-)

> There may be solutions -- such as using a site which does not
demand
> assignment of copyright -- but, while I fully sympathise with the
reasons
> for going to an "administered" site, I' d like the copyright question
to be
> taken into account in its choice.

Me too. I have spent endless hours bickering about these things
regarding
software code etc. I'd prefer not to have to do with in my spare time
for
matters of hobby too.

BTW, all the comments are based on my limited experience with US
Copyright laws,
and should be taken with a requisite pinch of salt or two.

Regards,

Jishnu.

From: Tim & Anita Wakeman <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA mailing list move

Date: 02 Nov 1999 19:53:01 -0500


Jishnu Mukerji wrote:
>
> > The problem is that if copyright IS assigned, someone else
might be
> > able to take and use my material,
>
> That can certainly happen, and since the terms of that licensing did
not include
> the phrase "for non-commercial use only", they could even put together
a book
> with your writings in it using the non-exclusive copyright granted to
them, and
> sell it and make money.:-(


WRONG! There was just a court ruling here in the US that ruled in favor
of us little people that stated anything posted on the net, photos or
writings, belong to the rightful owner. Big publishing Co. were saying
that if its "out there" they have a right to publish it and make money,
just like you said. The court ruled that this is theft of private
property and that unless permission, written or verbal, is obtained from
the owner the material can not be used in any form except private use.
This gives the right for lawsuits by the photographer/writer. Why do
large publishing Companies need this stuff for free? Everyone seems to
want to make a fast buck these days. Well they lost this time.

Regards, Tim

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: Footplating

Date: 02 Nov 1999 20:38:55 -0500



>I certainly feel discretion is better. U c I have trmendous experience
of
>both quoted, but am not willing to go public. At the most best is to b
>ambigous,while describing these things 4 e.g. it is better not to quote
the
>exact train/location/date etc..


I will back your statement no end, Anand. I was disturbed recently to
see
the full details of a footplating experience splattered on the list with
workings, driver's name, shed et all! One might agrue that such and such
crew doesn't have a problem being quoted but on your part that's the
most
thankless thing you can do.

Harsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Some info from Srinivas

Date: 02 Nov 1999 20:55:34 -0500


Thanks too Srinivas about this mail.

Apurva

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: Footplating

Date: 02 Nov 1999 22:33:47 -0500


HVC wrote:

> I will back your statement no end, Anand. I was disturbed recently to
see
> the full details of a footplating experience splattered on the list
with
> workings, driver's name, shed et all! One might agrue that such and
such
> crew doesn't have a problem being quoted but on your part that's the
most
> thankless thing you can do.

Absolutely, and this is, I think, an important enough
point to be included in the general guidelines for this
mailing list. I suppose an exception could be made for
location, if the footplating trip was not recent, and
exact dates and power numbers were not quoted. Location
and type of power are important descriptive elements,
but everything else should be ambiguous.

--
JS
--

From: Anand Krishnan <>

Subject: Re: Footplating

Date: 03 Nov 1999 00:19:40 -0500


Hi GANG,
>
> Most of powers one can see at SBC are from AJJ.
> This is to be expected because most of the trains
> running on the electrified route are to/from MAS.
> We also get to see a few of ED powers. Trains
> coming in from Madurai via ED have them. Only
> sometimes, we get to see the powers of BZA,
> ET, GZB and other places. Once I saw a WAM
> from Bhusaval. This power must have really been
> taken for a ride. I hope it reached home safely.
I have a question here. Trains towards Madurai and Trichy are now
operated on the Hosur-Charmapuri-Salem route and so can't be hauled by
WAMs.
I am yet to verify about Kerala bound trains from Bangalore. So i really

have my own apprehensions on this point as to whether trains towards
B'lore
from Madurai/Trichy are hauled by WAMs.
But there has been a major relocation of locos from AJJ to ED over the
last
7-8 months. ED now houses more of freight locos than passenger locos.
I too saw a Bhusaval WAM4 at Chennai that came in with the Navjeevan.
Fairly
a long haul i thought. Ghaziabad, BZA, Itarsi, Ajni, Jhansi A/C powers
are
very common in Chennai apart from ED and AJJ powers. On the SCR in
Hyderabad
however it has been Lallaguda(LGD), BZA, Ghaziabad for express/passenger

trains and Ajni and Itarsi powers for freight. I have not seens locos
from
any other shed till now.

> But we get to see WDM powers from all over.
Kazipet(KZJ), Guntakal(GTL), Krishnarajapuram(KJM), Erode(ED),
Itarsi(ET) for KK and Trichy(GOC) comes to my mind immediately. Have i
left
something else ??

Kind regards,
Anand

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From: PG JULIAN RAINBOW <>

Subject: Re: Hi! & questions

Date: 03 Nov 1999 04:18:05 -0500


All,

A few follow up items about Ken's message.

a) Blackwood Minatures have produced both the DHR Garratt and the C
Class now, nice but expensive.

b) What 8 books by Hugh Hughes? I know of 7 only, 3 in the first
series and 4 in the second

c) Continental Modeller produced a list of various UK museums with
Railway records some years ago now. Unfortunately, I do not have it
up here with me, but can produce a list from my own research if
anyone is interested.

d) Kelvin White's Indain Railway Study group newsletters are
obtainable for the cost of photocopying and postage, I cannot
remember all they contain, but think Ken contributed.

Julian

From: S.SRINIVAS <>

Subject: Re: WAM/WAP and WDM

Date: 03 Nov 1999 06:46:52 -0500


Hi gang

Here are some more info and answers
on AC and Diesel powers,

Regards

S. Srinivas

==========================

Anand Krishnan wrote:

> Hi GANG,
> >
> >
> I have a question here. Trains towards Madurai and Trichy are
now
> operated on the Hosur-Charmapuri-Salem route and so can't be hauled by
WAMs.

While SBC-TPJ train runs via Hosur-Dharmapuri and is hauled by a
WDM, the
SBC-MDU train runs via BWT-Tirupattur-Salem which is hauled by a
WAM or WAP between SBC and ED.

> I am yet to verify about Kerala bound trains from Bangalore. So i
really
> have my own apprehensions on this point as to whether trains towards
B'lore
> from Madurai/Trichy are hauled by WAMs.
>

The SBC-Kanyakumari Exp. (the very old Island Exp.) runs via
Hosur -
Dharmapuri and is hauled by a WDM. So also Kurla to
CBE and SBC-CBE Intercity Exps.


>
>
> > But we get to see WDM powers from all over.
> Kazipet(KZJ), Guntakal(GTL), Krishnarajapuram(KJM), Erode(ED),
> Itarsi(ET) for KK and Trichy(GOC) comes to my mind immediately. Have i
left
> something else ??

Yes. Karnataka Exp. or Rajdhani are sometimes hauled by WDM's of
TKD
(Thuklakabad).

From: S.SRINIVAS <>

Subject: Re: Youngest railfan

Date: 03 Nov 1999 06:48:06 -0500


Dear Anne

The old adage "Catch em young" works well.
But I do believe that Railfans are born not made.

Cheers and Regards

S. Srinivas

============================

Anne Ogborn wrote:

> I belong to a model railroading club. Our layout is
> in the basement of a children's museum, and naturally
> we get many, many young visitors.
> Some of them are real buffs. I remember one day
> a young boy came up to me and started talking
> about the TGV, ICE, etc. in great breathless detail.
>
> We've actually organized a children's program for
> some of these youngsters.
>
> Annie

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA mailing list move

Date: 03 Nov 1999 07:32:00 -0500


Tim & Anita Wakeman wrote:
>
> Jishnu Mukerji wrote:
> >
> > > The problem is that if copyright IS assigned, someone else
might be
> > > able to take and use my material,
> >
> > That can certainly happen, and since the terms of that licensing did
not include
> > the phrase "for non-commercial use only", they could even put
together a book
> > with your writings in it using the non-exclusive copyright granted
to them, and
> > sell it and make money.:-(
>
> WRONG! There was just a court ruling here in the US that ruled in
favor
> of us little people that stated anything posted on the net, photos or
> writings, belong to the rightful owner. Big publishing Co. were saying
> that if its "out there" they have a right to publish it and make
money,
> just like you said. The court ruled that this is theft of private
> property and that unless permission, written or verbal, is obtained
from
> the owner the material can not be used in any form except private use.

But the text assigning copyright without the "for non-commercial use"
language
*is* a written permission, no?

> This gives the right for lawsuits by the photographer/writer. Why do
> large publishing Companies need this stuff for free? Everyone seems to
> want to make a fast buck these days. Well they lost this time.

In a more general sense, was it a ruling by the Supreme Court? If not,
call me a
skeptic, but I would keep my powder dry on this one until we hear from
the
august Supreme Court. Until then I continue to maintain that this could
still
happen. Of course if it was a Supreme Court ruling, I am most
delighted.:-)

Regards,

Jishnu.
-
Jishnu Mukerji
Systems Architect

Email: jis@fpk.email Hewlett-Packard EIAL,
Tel: +1 973 443 7528 300 Campus Drive, 2E-62,
Fax: +1 973 443 7422 Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA.

From: Prakash Tendulkar <>

Subject: Greetings from Sarosh Mehta

Date: 03 Nov 1999 07:44:51 -0500


Hi All,

Enclosed, please find a greeting from Viraf.

Prakash
========================
Hi Prakash,

Viraf has proceeded on long leave since last
Saturday. He and his family are visiting places in
Rajasthan. He is likely to resume duties on or around
17th. I and my family are visiting Goa from the 7th
to the 17th and I shall resume duties on the 22nd.

I wish you all a very Happy Diwali and a Prosperous
New Year!

Could you please convey my wishes to our gang in
America as I am off the list for the time being.

Regards.

Sarosh



=====

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Bid and sell for free at <A HREF="http://auctions.yahoo.com">http://auctions.yahoo.com</A>

From: T.H.Sanyal. <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA mailing list move

Date: 03 Nov 1999 08:24:00 -0500


>Tim & Anita Wakeman wrote:
>>
>> Jishnu Mukerji wrote:
>> >
>>
>> WRONG! There was just a court ruling here in the US that ruled in
favor
>> of us little people that stated anything posted on the net, photos or
>> writings, belong to the rightful owner. Big publishing Co. were
saying

This, I believe, applies if there is no explicit mention about copyright
in the article being posted on the net. But if a service provider
requires a grant of copyright for using their services, then the
situation would be different. I must say that I say this as a layman,
as I am not a lawyer.

>But the text assigning copyright without the "for non-commercial use"
language
>*is* a written permission, no?

I would have to say "yes".

ths.

From: John Lacey <>

Subject: Re: Hi! & questions

Date: 03 Nov 1999 11:28:48 -0500




PG JULIAN RAINBOW wrote:

> All,
>
> A few follow up items about Ken's message.
>
> b) What 8 books by Hugh Hughes? I know of 7 only, 3 in the first
> series and 4 in the second
>

Steam In India, (D.Bradford Barton, 1976)

Cheers
John Lacey

From: Mike Brooker <>

Subject: Re: Youngest railfan

Date: 03 Nov 1999 18:37:17 -0500


Little boys and trains, automobiles, trucks, buses, planes, etc. just
naturally go together. I would even go so far to say that there could
be
something seriously wrong with a toddler-age boy who isn't fascinated by
things that move people and goods from one place to another. I was no
exception. As a pre-schooler I could distinguish at a glance the
Canadian
Pontiac series (Laurentian, Strato Chief, Parisienne) from their
American
counterparts (Catalina, Star Chief, Bonneville).

Just my 2 paise worth.

HAPPY DIWALI TO ALL!
JAI LAKSHMI MATA!!

********************************************************************
Mike Brooker
99 Wychcrest Ave.,
Toronto, ON M6G 3X8
CANADA
(416) 536-7406
********************************************************************


>The old adage "Catch em young" works well.
>But I do believe that Railfans are born not made.
>
>Cheers and Regards
>
>S. Srinivas
>
>============================
>
>Anne Ogborn wrote:
>
>> I belong to a model railroading club. Our layout is
>> in the basement of a children's museum, and naturally
>> we get many, many young visitors.
>> Some of them are real buffs. I remember one day
>> a young boy came up to me and started talking
>> about the TGV, ICE, etc. in great breathless detail.
>>
>> We've actually organized a children's program for
>> some of these youngsters.
>>
>> Annie
>

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: WAM/WAP and WDM

Date: 03 Nov 1999 20:48:13 -0500



>> > But we get to see WDM powers from all over.
>> Kazipet(KZJ), Guntakal(GTL), Krishnarajapuram(KJM), Erode(ED),
>> Itarsi(ET) for KK and Trichy(GOC) comes to my mind immediately. Have
i
left
>> something else ??
>
> Yes. Karnataka Exp. or Rajdhani are sometimes hauled by WDM's of
TKD
>(Thuklakabad).


Karnataka Exp. and Banglore Rajdhani on TKD powers! Very unlikely!!!

The diesel change occurs at Itarsi and Secundrabad respectively.

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: Hi! & questions

Date: 03 Nov 1999 20:59:03 -0500


>What 8 books by Hugh Hughes? I know of 7 only, 3 in the first
>series and 4 in the second


Steam in India. D. Bradford Barton's picture album. Truro, Cornwall 1976

From: Goodwin 4486 <>

Subject: World series Status 4 Book

Date: 04 Nov 1999 02:47:20 -0500


Hi everyone,
I am finally in the last stages of putting a book together
for a
freind, based on the World Series here in Australia.
In a last minute desision, we have decided to include a brief piece
about
the status of the model at the current time.
Any ideas about the India versions status right now. We mainly wish to

know what is running, scrapped or even preserved. It is hoped to let
readers
have a wider appreciation of how our 930/44 class cousins are going
overseas.
Thanks
Brad Peadon

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