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From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Train names, Queens and Godesses

Date: 06 Sep 1999 11:26:18 -0500


Hello Prakash,
May I change the subject?
I happened to see your WCAM/1 cab pics and the emu pics on the web
today: I chanced upon this old ir (unofficial) page while looking for
something else, with a list of member pages.
I found the pics extremely interesting, though rather darkened. Some of
the pics are real gems. I understand that the emu pics are from one of
your videos.
What was this video about?
Any more of your pics coming up? Its rare to get inside-the-cab action
shots.
I wish I could get some such pics. I could download from your site with
your permission, of course, but they appear a bit darkish.
Can you help?
Cheers.
Shankar


Prakash Tendulkar wrote:
>
> --- "poras p.saklatwalla " <pps@godrej.email wrote:
> >I think Mr Prakash is getting hyper and personal !
> >Why can't you call a spade a spade, white is white
> >and not yellow - then Bastards are Bastards !
> >There is no reckless language used by anyone and you
> >have to accept what you have to accept. Dont we
> >abuse Mr. Nitish Kumar or Ram Naik ? There is
> >nothing political which is absolute and it is only
> >relative.
>
> >Don't you see the way these white clad dark glassed
> >politicians have SCREWED OUR LIVES AND NATION
> >UMPTEEN NO OF TIMES ! SHANKAR I WHOLE HEARTEDLY
> >SUPPPORT YOU ! LET US BE FRANK AND NOT
> >H Y P O C R A T E S ! !
>
> --- Samit Roychoudhury <samr@vsnl.email wrote:
> >WELL SAID
> >I second, third fourth etc etc etc it
>
> Poras and Samit,
>
> No, this is not personal if you attack politicians
> and yes, it is personal, if you do so on IRFCA.
>
> There are forums like SCI (soc.culture.indian) and
> FOIL (Forum of Indian Leftists) to name a few, where
> you can go ahead and wash your dirty linens without
> offending anyone. I do not care what you write those
> forums.
>
> No so on IRFCA. That's a difference between a temple
> and toilet, although both the words start with an
> alphabet "T".
>
> Contributors have criticized politicians freely on
> IRFCA when the issue was directly related to IR.
> However, civilized criticism is altogether different
> than assigning arbitrary pedigree to politicians.
>
> Don't forget the fact that you are citizens of India
> and you are the ones who elect and nurture these
> politicians. So be prepared to pay for your deeds and
> share the blame among yourselves only but not on
> IRFCA.
>
> Choice is yours! Good Luck!
>
> Prakash
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at <A HREF="http://auctions.yahoo.com">http://auctions.yahoo.com</A>

From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: IRFCA

Date: 06 Sep 1999 11:26:47 -0500


Hello,
I've been a member of the irfca since 1997 now, and am quite delighted
to be part of such a terrific forum. I've learnt a lot, and have adopted
a lot of gurus or spiritual leaders therein. The forum has grown in
leaps and bounds particularly over the past couple of years.

I had managed to spot once again the irfca (unofficial) IR page while
browsing a couple of days ago.
I had a terrific time browsing through the websites of Apurva, (my,
there is a lot of goodies in them), Karthik Giddu, Sridhar
Shankaranarayanan, CL Zeni, Sridhar, Prakash Tendulkar etc. etc.

What struck me is that several of our veterans are missing.
Sridhar Shankaranarayan (As a photographer myself I rate his pics as
world class), Annie, CL Zeni, Karthik Giddu himself, and some others.

Having grown this far, I think apart from the irfca code of conduct and
restrictions, (no political talk, no canvassing for other subjects, no
non-ir topics,no attachments or large files etc), we should also
consider the following:

1. We should make a directory of all our members' webpages. Karthik
Giddu seems to have already done so, we can expand on/update that.

It will increase sharing of experiences, pictures and info and bind all
of us even closer, and may even build several close bonds between
members.

2. Several members now have their own webpages. Some of them have very
boldly displayed copyright notices.

I strongly feel that as members, we should clearly establish the policy
of members pages with relation to each other. Of course, no pinching
matetial or 'taking the liberty of quoting from your page' etc, but can
one member take the liberty of taking one pic from another member's page
and quote is as : for further info, check out (to take a purely
hypothetical example) this pic from Shanku Niyogi's site...

I mean, does the copyright issue apply even among members?

The concept of members drawing from each other's pages should work
perfectly as long as we respect the amount of hard work each member has
put into his webpage, and exercise some restraint.

It is better to avoid situations where I (say) quote some reference to
(say) Vijay's site, and he hauls me up saying how could you refer to my
site without referring to me first.

From my side, I'd like to make it clear to all my fellow members: feel
free to use any material from any of my sites for whatever purpose
whatsoever in whatever form. You can even save any image(s) you like
for putting into any other document.

I've been blessed with the generosity of members like Larry Russel
(where i've linked my Pak and Bangla pages with the pages on his EMD
site), Shanku Niyogi (ac emus), our great Apurva himself, Sundar and of
course John Lacey.

4. Why I mention this issue is, that this is how we members ought to be
interacting with each other: sharing, encouraging, providing info and
pics etc.
There has been a disturbing trend over the past couple of months with
some members taking others to task over their differences or matters not
directly ir related.
Let all of us agree to differ amicably.

A light hearted vein should me maintained at all times. Going serious
and issuing warnings or retributions amongst ourselves will kill the
very idea of such a forum. It is after all about one of our favorite
subjects.
From my side, I apologize for any hurt feelings owing to any of my
remarks, present or in the past.
Cheers.
Shankar

From: S Pai <>

Subject: Re: Proposed Nilgiri SLM power

Date: 06 Sep 1999 11:37:17 -0500



Thanks for the pointer! I am intrigued by their comments on the same
page about steam locos possibly making a comeback on the basis of
better suitability to local fuel availability, and also interestingly,
on the basis of lower fuel costs and lower pollution. India has
fairly large natural gas reserves. Could gas-burning steam locos be a
practical technology in India, if indeed, as these folks claim, they
are on the whole simpler to maintain and cheaper to run than diesels
or electrics? (The only other way to use natural gas efficiently
might be with gas turbine engines, and these are probably not suitable
for railway operations (requirement of fairly constant loads?) and too
complex to maintain easily.) The big advantage of natural gas is
of course that it is cleaner-burning than coal or oil, although it does
result in about the same amount of CO2 being released to the
environment.

Note the 0-4-2T at the top of the same page -- it's mounted on an
inclined base to keep the boilers reasonably horizontal on a very
steep rack section. Many Swiss funicular carriages of course have
this sort of construction to keep the body of the coaches reasonably
horizontal, but I haven't seen much of this in locomotives.

The other point about the 0-4-2T that caught my attention is that they
can keep a head of steam overnight with the fire out! Amazing!

--Satish

From: S Pai <>

Subject: IRFCA

Date: 06 Sep 1999 12:05:45 -0500



Is this a big problem? I'd think most members of IRFCA (and other
railfans outside the list) would be glad to give permission to link to
or copy items from their web pages if asked. Perhaps those that
assert copyright prominently are more worried about folks trying to
exploit their work for profit? The strategy I adopted for the FAQ is
to assert copyright but also grant permission to quote from or use it
for any non-commercial purpose. (Not that I have any easy way of
following up on this, of course...)

I've personally never had anybody refuse me permission when I asked them
(nicely :-) ) whether I could quote them or use their material.

--Satish

From: Samit Roychoudhury <>

Subject: Re: Train names, Queens and Godesses

Date: 06 Sep 1999 12:17:19 -0500


i guess the people who have pointed out that IRFCA isnt the place to
remark
on politicians are correct. we were (at least i was) wrong in that.

its just that sometimes i find them so blooming frustrating ... and i
found
a little vent for my thoughts. i dont want this to be a mud slinging
match
at all.

samit

From: S Pai <>

Subject: IRFCA

Date: 06 Sep 1999 12:17:22 -0500



As for linking together members' web pages, there's already a plan to
have a Members area at the IRFCA web site (www.irfca.org, under
construction by Shanku) which should have links to as many members'
web sites as we can manage. That would be the long-term solution.
Until then, I suppose a temporary repository of members' pages would
be useful. I can point a link off the FAQ if someone can send me a
reasonably up-to-date collection of URLs. Keeping the list current is
the harder problem.

(I don't know if there would be much to be gained by more complex
schemes
such as link-exchanges or web-ring arrangements to connect together
pages,
although if the people involved are agreeable, that might help -- but it
does create more work for everyone involved to keep the links updated.)

--Satish

From: Sridhar Shankarnarayan <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA

Date: 06 Sep 1999 12:59:06 -0500


Folks,

A belated trip report of sorts. My happy days as a student are over and
my
current job leaves me with little time to do other things :-(

Shankar's missive about missing people prompted me to write this (I
think I
had also promised Apurva to write one up). Any way, here goes. The most
exiting part of the trip was spotting the WDP2 in action. SR currently
has
two of these 15501 and 15503(?). They are both dedicated to the 6121/2
Chennai - Kanniakumari Express, which SR appears to be developing as a
premier train the newly converted BG route. The driver was kind enough
to
let me poke around. The most impressive feature was the panoramic view
from
the seat. The controls were quite different from the WDM2 applications
we
have seen. The throttle's concept appears to have been borrowed from the
'gear selector' you would see in a car with automatic transmission
(finished with a polished aluminium knob!). The driver was quite
enthusiastic about the loco and immediately talked about its 160 kmph
potential, though the track currently permits only 100kmph operation.

Another distinct feature is the twin waist level headlights, though this
is
not something I care for. By the way, many MG EMUs also sport a similar
setup. The loco has a heavier throaty sound - quite different from that
of
the WDM2.

I would love to find out if DLW plans to churn out more of these. Even
though I don't particularly like them, they certainly add to the
variety.

-Sridhar


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sridhar Shankar
1616 E. 50th Place, Apt. 13A
Chicago, IL 60615
(773) 752 1131 (H)
(312) 980 5492 (W)

From: S Pai <>

Subject: Calcutta Metro

Date: 06 Sep 1999 13:00:06 -0500



Rediff.com's travel/train page mentions that the Calcutta Metro has
"expanded" by 12km. Is this expansion in the form of extra trackage?
Or has another section of the metro been opened recently (didn't see
any other news items about that)?

--Satish

From: Anand Krishnan <>

Subject: sweet names for trains

Date: 06 Sep 1999 13:01:45 -0500


Hi all,
Just to add more colour to the discussion on naming convention
followed for trains. The Tirupati-Kholapur express is called "Haripriya
Express". What a sweet name to give a train? It just rings in one's ear
when
u pronounse it.

regards,
Anand


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From: Auroprem Kandaswami <>

Subject: SR Website http://www.southernrailway.com

Date: 06 Sep 1999 15:23:24 -0500



Hi friends,

Try the above URL.

This is what is displayed - Welcome to the future website of
Southern Railway.

There is also a timepiece shown, same as the one on
the cover page of SR Time Table 15 August 1998 (The only TT
that redefined how a TT should really be!)

I do hope this website comes up very soon. I expect the same superb,
excellent, model standards set by SR in all areas of operations.

Regards,
Auro

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From: Tim & Anita Wakeman <>

Subject: Re: More Wankaner/ Morbi pics site

Date: 06 Sep 1999 15:41:54 -0500


Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Gang !
>
> I ahve just completed Viraf/ Sarosh and Shriniwas' Wankaner, Morbi,
Dahinsara,
> Vavania, Maliya and Gandhidham pics - This is a large site with 135
pics.
> Go to:
> <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/">http://members.tripod.com/ApuB/</A>
> and click on the last link
>
> Let me know if a link does not work - let our friends know if you like
their pics !
>
> Apurva


Hi all,

Finally got a chance to go through this site. I must say that it is no
wonder many fans in the US from the first half of the decade miss steam.
The shots at the shed were just dripping with atmosphere!!!

Regards, Tim

From: S.B.Mehta <>

Subject: Re: Sunrise at Morbi and Vasai-Diva!!!

Date: 06 Sep 1999 18:55:46 -0500


Hi, Shankar,

Yes, I did read that article. Thank you for affording an insight to
the happennings in the other parts of the world.

I have with me the pics of our Vasai-Diva trip. Some of them
are ok the rest could be trashed. Nothing but steam turns me on.


Now a special mention for my friend Appu. Thanks a million, Appu,
from the 'Godrej Gang' (Viraf, Shri & myself) for putting up our pics
on the web! I am waiting for my B/W ADI pics to be put on the web.
Hope they are warmly received by 'steam-crazy nuts' (like myself!)

Sarosh.

From: Anurag Acharya <>

Subject: [IRFCA

Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:01:00 -0500



I intend to flyu to India this coming October and I'll be very glad to
receive the timetables, fares and special train packets between the
main touristic cities in your wonderful country as I, as an italian
journalist, intend to do a specific report on india and its
civilisation.

thanking in advance

sauropan@tim.email

From: S Pai <>

Subject: sleepers & deforestation in the 19th century

Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:24:46 -0500



The excerpts below are from "This Fissured Land" by Madhav Gadgil and
Ramachandra Guha, a book on the ecological history of India. I hope
they are of interest to some.

Unindented text is mine, as are the remarks in square brackets.

[begin excerpts]
While great chunks of forest were destroyed to meet the demand for
railway sleepers, no supervision was exercised over the felling
operations... ... The sub-Himalayan forests of Garhwal and Kumaon
... were all 'felled in even to desolation'... The Melghat and
North Arcot hills [in Madras Presidency -- today's Tamil Nadu],
formerly crowned with timber were 'now to a considerable degree
laid bare' by the insatiable demand of the railways. All around
the tracks, where once there was forest, gthere now lay wide
swathes of cleared land stripped bare of cover ... In the Madras
Presidency over 250,000 sleepers (or 35,000 trees) were required
annually from indigenous sources. [more about how jungles were
cleared further and further away from railway lines, and
simultaneously more and more species of trees were exploited for
sleepers] Although only half a dozen species were considered
suitable for use as railway sleepers, more than fifty were tried
out. Not surprisingly, sleepers expected to last five or six
years only lasted a third of the time. In one consignment, out of
487 sleepers supplied, 458 were found to be of unauthorized woods.

This is all in 1860, by the way, which is what surprised me -- I had
not realized the scale of the railway operations then would have
resulted in such an impact on the environment.

The pace of railway expansion -- from 1349km of track in 1860 to
51,658km in 1910 and the trail of destruction it brought in its
wake brought home forcefully the fact that India's forests were not
inexhaustible. [Even back in 1860, it was noted that] ... railway
requirements were 'the first and by far the most formidable' of the
forces thinning Indian forests.

Hmmm... The dark side of the early railways in India?

So in 1862 the Governor-General called for the establishment of a forest
department because of this realization and the need to ensure
sustainable supplies of timber for the railway companies. More:

The crisis had assumed major proportions as only three Indian
timbers -- teak, sal, and deodar -- were strong enough in their
natural state to be utilized as railway sleepers. Sal and teak,
being available near railway lines in peninsular India, were very
heavily worked in the early years, necessitating expeditions to the
north-western Himalaya in search of deodar forests. The deodar of
the Sutlej and Yamuna valleys was rapidly exhausted in the years
following the inception of the forest department -- over 6,500,000
deodar sleepers were supplied from the Yamuna forests alone between
1869 and 1885. [end of excerpts]

At first the forest department appears to have acted only to reserve
certain forests for railway purposes, and only later really acted in
the interests of conservation (and even that seems to have meant
ensuring teak was available for export to Great Britain rather than
being used domestically :-) ).

Later it is mentioned in the book that it was only in 1910 that
methods were invented of treating other woods (chir (?) and blue pine)
so that they were capable of being used as sleepers.

--Satish

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Proposed Nilgiri SLM power

Date: 06 Sep 1999 19:45:52 -0500


>
> Note the 0-4-2T at the top of the same page -- it's mounted on an
> inclined base to keep the boilers reasonably horizontal on a very
> steep rack section. Many Swiss funicular carriages of course have
> this sort of construction to keep the body of the coaches reasonably
> horizontal, but I haven't seen much of this in locomotives.

Dear Satish,

There are many such inclined steam locomotives around the world. But the
Swiss have most of them. I distinctly remember a Swiss loco lovingly
called a "Kneeling Cow". Even USA has them - one on Mt. Washington (?)
Cog
Railway.

Viraf

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================

From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: Re: IRFCA Web page, and mine

Date: 06 Sep 1999 20:50:23 -0500


Hello Dr. Walker,
Thanks for the url to your webpage. I will browse at leisure shortly.

In the meantime, I do now know if I'd pointed out before (I think I
had): in you models page, the title appears as:

Some images of the BARFI light railway (or words to that effect).

The correct name is BARSI and not Barfi.

Barfi is a kind a Indian sweet!

The Barsi Light Railway was made famous by Calthropp: a car from the BLR
is preserved at the NRM, Delhi, while an 'F' class engine from the same
railway is preserved outside Poona (Pune) station.

Cheers.
Shankar




Dr. K.J. Walker wrote:
>
> Dear Satish, and everyone,
> This discussion of webpages is rather timely! I've just been
doing a
> quick update of mine, and am anxious to incorporate links to IRFCA
pages as
> well as some of the existing ones. (some of which, I note, are
outdated and
> will need to be fixed). I'll be happy for your to incorporate a link
to my
> page; while the IRFCA page is under construction, what pages should I
link
> to?
> If any one wants to take a peek at my page now, it's at
> <A HREF="http://powerup.com.au/~kjw_meh">http://powerup.com.au/~kjw_meh</A>. I have considerably improved
cross-linking
> among the pages, making the site easier to navigate. There is a new
> RAILSTUFF video, on the Ooty Rack, and I'm at work on a Calcutta Trams
one.
> Details on the videos page.
> Cheers
> Ken Walker
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Pai <s_pai@bigfoot.email
> To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
> Date: 6 September 1999 7:29
> Subject: IRFCA
>
> >
> >As for linking together members' web pages, there's already a plan to
> >have a Members area at the IRFCA web site (www.irfca.org, under
> >construction by Shanku) which should have links to as many members'
> >web sites as we can manage. That would be the long-term solution.
> >Until then, I suppose a temporary repository of members' pages would
> >be useful. I can point a link off the FAQ if someone can send me a
> >reasonably up-to-date collection of URLs. Keeping the list current
is
> >the harder problem.
> >
> >(I don't know if there would be much to be gained by more complex
schemes
> >such as link-exchanges or web-ring arrangements to connect together
pages,
> >although if the people involved are agreeable, that might help -- but
it
> >does create more work for everyone involved to keep the links
updated.)
> >
> >--Satish
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From: Mike Brooker <>

Subject: Re: sweet names for trains

Date: 06 Sep 1999 21:35:48 -0500


>Hi all,
> Just to add more colour to the discussion on naming convention
>followed for trains. The Tirupati-Kholapur express is called "Haripriya
>Express". What a sweet name to give a train? It just rings in one's ear
when
>u pronounse it.
>
"Haripriya" means literally "Dear Lord". Yes it is a sweet name for an
IR
train. There don't seem to be many trains with Sanskrit names, or
named
after Hindu deities, but that could be because the BJP hasn't been in
power
long enough to do a "Hindutva" job on IR.

A name that I like is the Delhi-Varanasi "Kashivishwanath Express".
Makes
me want to chant the invocation to Lord Shiva:
Hara Hara Mahadeva Shambho
Kashi Vishwanatha Gange

********************************************************************
Mike Brooker
99 Wychcrest Ave.,
Toronto, ON M6G 3X8
CANADA
(416) 536-7406
********************************************************************

From: SHRINIVAS V. JOSHI <>

Subject: Re: sleepers

Date: 06 Sep 1999 21:44:18 -0500


Hi!


On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, S Pai wrote:

> What kinds of sleepers does IR use these days? Are the majority (of
> the new ones) wooden? What kinds of wood? There are many places
> where it looks like there is just a thin metal connector between the
> rails instead of a regular sleeper -- what are those? (Sometimes this
> appears in conjunction with one wooden piece for each rail rather than
> a sleeper spanning the track, or what looks like a prestressed
> concrete beam of some sort under the track.

IR is using precast concrete sleepers these days on all newly laid
tracks
& where ever doubling is taking place. Replacing the earlier wooden with
these new variety.

The first section on CR with concrete sleepers was around Badlapur,
Karjat
some 10 years back. Now almost all the tracks on suburban are having
these
new ones.

Near Dombivali, towards CST on Up thru line the train used to bounce
quite a
lot after the wooden sleepers were replaced with concrete ones. So much
so
there were fears amongst the passengers & complaints were sent from
passengers
to PRO of CR. Now the problem is more or less solved. May be something
to
do with cushioning factor. Any of us experienced such bouncy effect on
tracks after conversion?

Bye,

Shrinivas

From: Prakash Tendulkar <>

Subject: Re: Train names, Queens and Godesses

Date: 06 Sep 1999 22:03:59 -0500


Hi Shankar,

Glad for you changed the topic. Now we are back to
the track.

I know that my pics are darkened. EMY pics were
converted from a video I made during my trip 7 years
back.

I did not have a good image editor at that time but
I do have one now. The catch 22 is "TIME", a typical
cry from an American software guy.

I'll try to update and reload them in a few months.
(I wish I had an energy and devotion like you.

Prakash

--- "S.Shankar" <shankie@emirates.email wrote:
> Hello Prakash,
> May I change the subject?
> I happened to see your WCAM/1 cab pics and the emu
> pics on the web
> today: I chanced upon this old ir (unofficial) page
> while looking for
> something else, with a list of member pages.
> I found the pics extremely interesting, though
> rather darkened. Some of
> the pics are real gems. I understand that the emu
> pics are from one of
> your videos.
> What was this video about?
> Any more of your pics coming up? Its rare to get
> inside-the-cab action
> shots.
> I wish I could get some such pics. I could download
> from your site with
> your permission, of course, but they appear a bit
> darkish.
> Can you help?
> Cheers.
> Shankar
>
>

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From: S.B.Mehta <>

Subject: Re: sleepers

Date: 06 Sep 1999 22:27:43 -0500


to PRO of CR. Now the problem is more or less solved. May be
something to
> do with cushioning factor. Any of us experienced such bouncy effect
on
> tracks after conversion?
>
> Bye,
>
> Shrinivas
>
On the contrary. There was a section on the Up slow track near
Ghatkopar stn. (Kanara Engg.) where the train used to bounce a lot.
After the new sleepers were placed this effect has been more or less
nullified.

Sarosh.

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