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From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 07:26:16 -0500


Hello,
I'll second that.
Accidents can, and will always happen.
The idea is to see and gauge as to what lessons can be learnt from them
and then get on with business as usual.
Unfortunately, the International press is always very critical about
India all the time: underplaying the successes and greatly magnifying
the failures. The immediate reaction whenever something goes wrong is
'see, I told you he was stupid!'.
And this phenomenon is what is coming out even now. The US particularly
has more than one axe to grind with India due to India rubbing them the
wrong way in more ways than one: the CTBT treaty, the recent deal with
Iraq etc. and does tend to be quite critical.
The abysmal quality of our politicians with their intellectual
suppleness and easy moral manoeuvrability and their shooting off their
mouth without thinking only lowers teh international image of India
further, and any one such major catastrophe is all thats needed for the
world to say all sorts of things.
Its something we've got to live with.
In the meantime, lets try and learn from our mistakes and do full
justice to what is the greatest railway system in the world, the good
old IR.
Cheers.
Shankar




Anand Krishnan wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Yes Sarosh, i am totally with you in telling the critics to
just
> shut-up. To hell with what they have to say. I read each and every
article
> posted on BBC page sent by Shanku and i plan to add mine too over
there.
> Excepting for one person others were all praise for IR
> And thats why there exist a 100 member list, spanning several
continents,
> that pours in discussions after discussions on IR. I really feel proud
to be
> an ardent IR fan.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Anand
>
> >From: "S.B.Mehta" <sarosh@godrej.email
> >To: "Saurabh Jang" <saurabhj@wwa.email <iti@giaspn01.email
> >"Rajan Mathew" <rajanmathew@telebot.email
> >CC: <irfca@cs.email
> >Subject: Re: Fw: Question about IR
> >Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:16:25 +0530
> >
> >we need not unduly worry about what the Americans have to say about
> >our railways. On the day of the disaster I happened to watch the BBC
> >World service and therein the newscaster categorically stated that
> >the Indian Railways rates on par with the railways of the developed
> >nations. Did any of you guys happen to hear this news? Also, he said
> >that taking into account the volume and density of the network the
> >number of accidents that have occured still fall within the
> >acceptable limits. I am still a greenhorn in such matters, maybe the
> >pundits in our group could elaborate from these news reports.
> >
> >To hell with what others have to comment sitting thousands of miles
> >away and lets devise ways to provide a cleaner chit to IR.
> >
> >Sarosh
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>

From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Vikhroli Bomb Blast ... Location report ...

Date: 06 Aug 1999 07:26:37 -0500


Hello,
Thank goodness you were riding a train two trains behind! It appears
that you had a narrow escape. God is great.
Who was behind the blast? Was it a serious one?
And what is all this about the motorman making announcements on teh
speakers? You mean there is actually a means for the driver to talk to
his passengers? When was this system installed? Its fascinating!
Best regards.
Shankar



Rajan Mathew wrote:
>
> I was in the Thane fast local, which was two trains behind the
affected
> train, (running on line 3 - Dn fast/through track) on my way to
Vikhroli ...
> The train just stopped midway between Godrej and Vikhroli, about 1950
and
> was held up for at least an hour. After 10-15 minutes of waiting, (by
which
> time the Thane local crept upto just behind the Karjat local, and the
Punjab
> Mail crept up to be just behind the Thane local) the motorman
announced,
> through the speakers in the train, that the train (in which i was) was
> delayed because the train in front had halted. After a further 15
minutes,
> the motorman anounced (in Hindi) that a bomb blast had taken place in
the
> Ambarnath bound Local at Vikhroli Station, and that the train would
take
> time to move. He further announced that any passenger who wished to
alight
> and walk to Vikhroli Station to take an onward slow were free to do
so. Half
> of my train (including me) jumped out and walked it to Vikhroli Stn
(on the
> tracks), where there was a huge crowd. the Place was swarming with
people
> and Police investigating the incident. All the slow locals leaving
from Pf 1
> were packed, as was the platform. By the time I reached Vikhroli
Station,
> the Ambarnath Train was cleared from the site and the Karjat Local
reached
> platform 3 .. The line was cleared by then and trains started to move.
>
> In Mumbai Central Railway, Lines/Platforms 1-2 are only for Slow
locals
> (halting at all local suburban stations)
> PF 1 - Dn direction towards Thane, Kalyan etc
> and PF 2 - Up direction towards Kurla, Dadar, Mumbai CST
> Lines/Platforms 3-4 are only for Fast locals (halting at selective
> stations), Through Mail/Express/Passenger Trains and Goods Trains
> PF 3 - Dn direction towards Thane, Kalyan etc
> and PF 4 - Up direction towards Kurla, Dadar, Mumbai CST
>
> Rajan
>
> > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, VIRAF P.. MULLA wrote:
> >
> > > BTW are you aware of the bomb blast in a CR LOCAL yesterday night
at
> > > Vikhroli? It seems the train had just cleared our Godrej complex
when it
> > > happened.
> >
> > Yes, it happened near Vikhroli station. It was Ambernath bound
local, one
> > Mr. Panchal of Dombivli died later. He probably jumped off the
running
> > train after the blast another Sardar was injured in the leg.
> >
> > Shrinivas

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Question about Delhi and Calcutta Metros

Date: 06 Aug 1999 08:47:03 -0500


Folks,

Now onto more positive topics after the most depressing week resulting
from Gaisal.....

I was browsing through the Railway Gazette July 99 issue and came across
the following:

"INDIA's Ministry of Railways invited three prequalification tenders in
May for work on the 55·.3km Delhi Mass Rapid Transit metro network which
was officially launched last October (RG 9.98 p567). According to the
ministry 'all the bids are global and are open to Indian or
international
companies who can participate either individually or as a joint
venture/consortium.'

The three tenders cover civil engineering work on the tunnels and
stations, design and installation of the signalling, train control and
communications systems, and the supply of passenger rolling stock. Total
cost of the metro is put at Rs48·6bn, and completion is envisaged for
March 2005."

The 9/98 issue of the same publication had the following:

"A FORMAL go-ahead for construction of the long-planned metro network in
the Indian capital is due to be announced this month, following the
creation of the Delhi Metro Rail Corp to manage the project. Headed by
E Sreedharan, former General Manager of the Konkan Railway Corp,
DMRC is a joint venture of the central and state governments.

The 55 km priority network includes 11 km of tunnelled route, including
machine-bored tunnels under the market area at Chandni Chowk. There will
also be 22 km of elevated route and 22 km of surface running. Peak
traffic projections are as high as 1.2 million passengers/h in a city
which has 11
million inhabitants and 28 million motor vehicles. In the longer term,
the network is expected to reach 198 km by 2021.

Contracts for civil works on the first stage were due to be awarded last
month. DMRC expects the 8 km across the Yamuna river between Shadahra
and Tis-Hazari Court to be commissioned in 2002, and the 11 km route
from Delhi University to the Central Secretariat is to be completed in
2007.

Japan's Overseas Economic Co-operation Fund has pledged US$400m towards
the metro, which will meet 56% of the cost. Another 15% will come
from the Indian government and a similar amount from the city. The rest
will be met from loans and property development revenues.

A consortium of Rail India Technical & Economic Services, Tonichi, Jarts
and Pacific Consortium of Japan, and Parsons Brinckerhoff of the USA is
undertaking detailed design studies costed at Rs48.6bn. RITES had
earlier prepared plans for a 184.5 km integrated multi-modal mass rapid
transit
system (DM91 p32) which was approved by the government in July 1994."

Do any of you have any more info on this? Exact routes, station
locations etc.?

On the Calcutta front, any news of the status of extension from
Tollygunj to New Garia?

Thanks,

Jishnu.
--
Jishnu Mukerji
Systems Architect

Email: jis@fpk.email Hewlett-Packard EIAL,
Tel: +1 973 443 7528 300 Campus Drive, 2E-62,
Fax: +1 973 443 7422 Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA.

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 09:11:28 -0500


S.Shankar wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I'll second that.
> Accidents can, and will always happen.
> The idea is to see and gauge as to what lessons can be learnt from
them
> and then get on with business as usual.

No no. One would expect that the lessons learnt would actually be put
into practice changing the business from continuing to be business as
usual.

> Unfortunately, the International press is always very critical about
> India all the time: underplaying the successes and greatly magnifying
> the failures. The immediate reaction whenever something goes wrong is
> 'see, I told you he was stupid!'.

I think people in India need to stop getting excited about what the US
media says about lots of things, and in particular about accidents. They
do an abysmally poor job of reporting accidents even in the US, It
should be no surpprise that they are no different about accidents
anywhere else. You should see some of the gratuitious lambasting that
Amtrak, any of the Airlines, FAA, FRA, NTSB and anyone else that they
can dream up, go through based on ill-informed and uneducated drivel
from the US press. And equally you should see the lambasting the US
press gets about its reporting of accidents in the US in the various
learned mailing lists like IRFCA.

> And this phenomenon is what is coming out even now. The US
particularly
> has more than one axe to grind with India due to India rubbing them
the
> wrong way in more ways than one: the CTBT treaty, the recent deal with
> Iraq etc. and does tend to be quite critical.

Considering the US press to be a monolith that grinds the same axe as
the US government would be an error, in my judgement. Different sections
of the US press have different axes to grind. For example, I would be
very surprised if any of the reporting on Gaisal accident was tainted in
any way by India's stand on CTBT. That would be giving too much credit
to the US press for non-knee jerk reporting.:-) I think they were just
being their usual incompetent selves.

> The abysmal quality of our politicians with their intellectual
> suppleness and easy moral manoeuvrability and their shooting off
their
> mouth without thinking only lowers teh international image of India
> further, and any one such major catastrophe is all thats needed for
the
> world to say all sorts of things. Its something we've got to live
with.

That always helps. But then again we have politicians in the US who not
only have their feet permanently planted in their mouths, but even have
other parts of their anatomy planted in other people's mouths.:-)

> In the meantime, lets try and learn from our mistakes and do full
> justice to what is the greatest railway system in the world, the good
> old IR.

Yep. The best thing that can come out from an accident is knowledge on
how to avoid another one like it, and the best thing that anyone can do
with that knowledge is actually to prevent future occurence of similar
accidents. If that is achieved even to a reasonable degree, then the
sufferings of those involved in the accident to some extent would not be
in vain.

Regards,

Jishnu.

From: Anand Krishnan <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 09:14:32 -0500


Hi all,
Yes Sarosh, i am totally with you in telling the critics to just

shut-up. To hell with what they have to say. I read each and every
article
posted on BBC page sent by Shanku and i plan to add mine too over there.

Excepting for one person others were all praise for IR
And thats why there exist a 100 member list, spanning several
continents,
that pours in discussions after discussions on IR. I really feel proud
to be
an ardent IR fan.

Kind Regards,
Anand

>From: "S.B.Mehta" <sarosh@godrej.email
>To: "Saurabh Jang" <saurabhj@wwa.email <iti@giaspn01.email

>"Rajan Mathew" <rajanmathew@telebot.email
>CC: <irfca@cs.email
>Subject: Re: Fw: Question about IR
>Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:16:25 +0530
>
>we need not unduly worry about what the Americans have to say about
>our railways. On the day of the disaster I happened to watch the BBC
>World service and therein the newscaster categorically stated that
>the Indian Railways rates on par with the railways of the developed
>nations. Did any of you guys happen to hear this news? Also, he said
>that taking into account the volume and density of the network the
>number of accidents that have occured still fall within the
>acceptable limits. I am still a greenhorn in such matters, maybe the
>pundits in our group could elaborate from these news reports.
>
>To hell with what others have to comment sitting thousands of miles
>away and lets devise ways to provide a cleaner chit to IR.
>
>Sarosh
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</A>

From: Dr. Shirish Yande <>

Subject: railway Minister's Resignation

Date: 06 Aug 1999 10:45:19 -0500


Dear Folks,

The Minister of Railways, Mr. Nitish Kumar would have been much better
off spending the rest
of his tenure trying to eradicate the lapses in the Railway safety on a
war footing rather than
sitting at home and mourning the accident.

The glamour of resignation over accidents seems to have faded in the
present era , where political motives
have taken over the genuine cause in every action. As such using this
opportunity in concentrating on
railway safety and doing a monumental job in safety reforms would have
far outweighed the polical
footage he would otherwise enjoy by simly resigning from the
ministership.

Besides it is erroneous to postulate that Indian Railways are facing
more accidents due to faster trains. Our
trains are no faster than they were ten years ago. Indeed the present
crisis is realy the number of trains that
run beyond the track capacity, for which Ministrs alone are responsible.

It's high time Railway Ministers should look into the real problems of
our railways rather than make
political and popular decisions of introducing more trains, using the
Railways as a great source of earning
political goodwill.

Dr. Shirish Yande, Pune

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 11:11:41 -0500


> S.Shankar wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>> I'll second that.
>> Accidents can, and will always happen.
>> The idea is to see and gauge as to what lessons can be learnt from
them
>> and then get on with business as usual.
>
>No no. One would expect that the lessons learnt would actually be put
>into practice changing the business from continuing to be business as
>usual.

I agree. Far too often, too little is done beyond the actual
investigation.
Or otherwise well-intended measures end up dying out or getting watered
down due to the usual constraints.

>> Unfortunately, the International press is always very critical about
>> India all the time: underplaying the successes and greatly magnifying
>> the failures. The immediate reaction whenever something goes wrong is
>> 'see, I told you he was stupid!'.

>I think people in India need to stop getting excited about what the US
>media says about lots of things, and in particular about accidents.
They
>do an abysmally poor job of reporting accidents even in the US, It
>should be no surpprise that they are no different about accidents
>anywhere else. You should see some of the gratuitious lambasting that
>Amtrak, any of the Airlines, FAA, FRA, NTSB and anyone else that they
>can dream up, go through based on ill-informed and uneducated drivel
>from the US press. And equally you should see the lambasting the US
>press gets about its reporting of accidents in the US in the various
>learned mailing lists like IRFCA.

US media is often rather poor about reporting accidents of any kind.
However,
I feel this actually does have a some positive effects. Public relations
(the kind that suddenly come to the forefront when the press gets
involved
in a story) often drives good changes that would be otherwise swept
under
the carpet. Regardless of how ill-informed the information may be, and
how
unpalatable it is to knowledgeable people, this kind of press influences
the customer - and it is often customer opinion which gets things done.
While I don't particularly like this aspect of the US press, and find it
mind-numbing to have to sit through the "consumer report" section of
every newscast, I do feel the Indian media has something to learn from
its value.

>> And this phenomenon is what is coming out even now. The US
particularly
>> has more than one axe to grind with India due to India rubbing them
the
>> wrong way in more ways than one: the CTBT treaty, the recent deal
with
>> Iraq etc. and does tend to be quite critical.

>Considering the US press to be a monolith that grinds the same axe as
>the US government would be an error, in my judgement. Different
sections
>of the US press have different axes to grind. For example, I would be
>very surprised if any of the reporting on Gaisal accident was tainted
in
>any way by India's stand on CTBT. That would be giving too much credit
>to the US press for non-knee jerk reporting.:-) I think they were just
>being their usual incompetent selves.

In many cases, international reporters in the US pick up on each other's

views far more than that of the government. If a known journalist
reaches
an often preconceived opinion about a news story, and inserts this
subjectivity
into his reports, the sentiment quickly pervades through the rest of the
press. This seems to be the case here as well - Barry Bearak of the NY
Times
called the IR a relic, and others picked up on it. I doubt if Brian
Bearak
has ever been on an Indian train, or if some of those aping him have
ever
been to India.

I suspect this copying may be laziness on the part of the press, and not
some sort of government co-ordinated conspiracy.

BTW, Sarosh, although you bring to attention BBC's positive reports
about
the IR, it's worthwhile to note that most of the articles on the BBC
website
have been more dismissive. Unlike the Americans, who don't know
much at all about India's railways, the British have past links to it,
having
built much of the infrastructure and then lost control of it. So, the
condescending nature of some of the reports may have their origin in the
sentiments of the British press, more than in anything else.

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 11:20:05 -0500


My mail was sent from the wrong outbox ....

I think that you got the accident I was referring to ...
I got a bit muddled up with the trains alright ....
but the point was a head on collision in a section with two tracks
(though
possibly the convention followed is different)
was again a human error.

Back to the Gaisal Accident, it was shocking to observe the lack of
vigilance on a section in which work was in progress, and lack of
alertness
of the driver and station staff ....
In Mumbai, the convention for track usage is very clearly defined and
this
should be implemented very strictly in all double line sections.

It would lead to positive chaos if we were to allow a convention of
usage of
both tracks for both directions

Rajan

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 11:45:46 -0500


Actually my mail was sent from the wrong outbox ....

Earlier, I had just pointed out an instance of a head to head collision
in
the US which was quite similar to our own, the source lying in human
error.

If one observes the IR system closely, all major trunk routes from old
times
were broad gauge. These were the earliest lines on the IR. Later, cost
became a important consideration in railway expansion and this was the
source of the metre gauge network being constructed.

The broad gauge network bears the greatest loads in terms of passenger
and
goods shipment and it has always received attention in terms of
improvements
and track upgradation.

The fastest trains, high speed tracks, electrification, new links have
been
done on the BG stretch. More than 5000 km of MG line have been converted
in
the present decade alone.

The 760 km long Konkan Railway is a example of technology applied to
create
a enduring high speed BG line.

The introduction of high speed electric and diesel locomotives are a
testimony to this.

IR safety norms are really stringent regarding speeds and loads - a
clear
pointer to the competence of the engineers working out the safety
aspect.

The accident was just plain lack of alertness by the related staff. They
infact are now missing since evidence points to thier neglect of
running.

The Indian railways have moved from strength to stregth in terms of
expansion. even litle known places are getting railway lines. No country
living on its colonial infrastructure would actually make such vast
strides
in technical development. An example of the reverse are some lines in
Africa - Sudan where a couple of beaten out locos which work when they
wish
too, and the rail/govt taking no interest whatsoever in the uplift of
the
line.

The Indian Railways means too much to the nation of India to be cheaply
maintained and administered.

Rajan Mathew
PS - The mail is being forwarded to members of IFRCA for more valuable
observations

----- Original Message -----
From: Saurabh Jang <saurabhj@wwa.email
To: Nirmal Mathew <nirmal@HotPOP.email
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: Question about IR

Nirmal,

Thanks for your response. One question I have is whether broad gauge is
a
gauge which the Indian Railways have converted tracks to after
independence
predominantly? I am trying to present facts which show that the Indian
Railways management has made improvements to the capacity and speed of
our
railway system and they just haven't been running a colonial heritage
into
the ground as a result of incompetence.

Thanks,
Saurabh

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 12:00:35 -0500


Shanku,

You make some very good point, and I agree with them. I thought I'd let
you know privately instead of continuing this thread on IRFCA, since it
is getting somewhat far removed from IR at this point.

Thanks and Regards,

Jishnu.

Shanku Niyogi wrote:
>
> > S.Shankar wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >> I'll second that.
> >> Accidents can, and will always happen.
> >> The idea is to see and gauge as to what lessons can be learnt from
them
> >> and then get on with business as usual.
> >
> >No no. One would expect that the lessons learnt would actually be put
> >into practice changing the business from continuing to be business as
> >usual.
>
> I agree. Far too often, too little is done beyond the actual
investigation.
> Or otherwise well-intended measures end up dying out or getting
watered
> down due to the usual constraints.
>
> >> Unfortunately, the International press is always very critical
about
> >> India all the time: underplaying the successes and greatly
magnifying
> >> the failures. The immediate reaction whenever something goes wrong
is
> >> 'see, I told you he was stupid!'.
>
> >I think people in India need to stop getting excited about what the
US
> >media says about lots of things, and in particular about accidents.
They
> >do an abysmally poor job of reporting accidents even in the US, It
> >should be no surpprise that they are no different about accidents
> >anywhere else. You should see some of the gratuitious lambasting that
> >Amtrak, any of the Airlines, FAA, FRA, NTSB and anyone else that they
> >can dream up, go through based on ill-informed and uneducated drivel
> >from the US press. And equally you should see the lambasting the US
> >press gets about its reporting of accidents in the US in the various
> >learned mailing lists like IRFCA.
>
> US media is often rather poor about reporting accidents of any kind.
> However,
> I feel this actually does have a some positive effects. Public
relations
> (the kind that suddenly come to the forefront when the press gets
involved
> in a story) often drives good changes that would be otherwise swept
under
> the carpet. Regardless of how ill-informed the information may be, and
how
> unpalatable it is to knowledgeable people, this kind of press
influences
> the customer - and it is often customer opinion which gets things
done.
> While I don't particularly like this aspect of the US press, and find
it
> mind-numbing to have to sit through the "consumer report" section of
> every newscast, I do feel the Indian media has something to learn from
> its value.
>
> >> And this phenomenon is what is coming out even now. The US
particularly
> >> has more than one axe to grind with India due to India rubbing them
the
> >> wrong way in more ways than one: the CTBT treaty, the recent deal
with
> >> Iraq etc. and does tend to be quite critical.
>
> >Considering the US press to be a monolith that grinds the same axe as
> >the US government would be an error, in my judgement. Different
sections
> >of the US press have different axes to grind. For example, I would be
> >very surprised if any of the reporting on Gaisal accident was tainted
in
> >any way by India's stand on CTBT. That would be giving too much
credit
> >to the US press for non-knee jerk reporting.:-) I think they were
just
> >being their usual incompetent selves.
>
> In many cases, international reporters in the US pick up on each
other's
> views far more than that of the government. If a known journalist
reaches
> an often preconceived opinion about a news story, and inserts this
> subjectivity
> into his reports, the sentiment quickly pervades through the rest of
the
> press. This seems to be the case here as well - Barry Bearak of the NY
Times
> called the IR a relic, and others picked up on it. I doubt if Brian
Bearak
> has ever been on an Indian train, or if some of those aping him have
ever
> been to India.
>
> I suspect this copying may be laziness on the part of the press, and
not
> some sort of government co-ordinated conspiracy.
>
> BTW, Sarosh, although you bring to attention BBC's positive reports
about
> the IR, it's worthwhile to note that most of the articles on the BBC
website
> have been more dismissive. Unlike the Americans, who don't know
> much at all about India's railways, the British have past links to it,
> having
> built much of the infrastructure and then lost control of it. So, the
> condescending nature of some of the reports may have their origin in
the
> sentiments of the British press, more than in anything else.

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: another accident (almost)

Date: 06 Aug 1999 12:08:39 -0500


>Today's newspaper has a report on a train accident which was avoided
>at the last minute near Banda. Two freight trains were allowed on
>the same track in the opposite direction. The two drivers could
>see each other from a significant distance, and applied emergency
>brakes, and the trains stopped short of colliding with each other.


Wow! that unbelievable! How could they?
I thought the Gaisal incidence must have shaken up the entire nation and
least of all the railwaymen who work the similar systems.

I believe this is single line stretch and is still token worked!!!

It is heartening to see how the media is now keen to pinpoint each and
every
lapse on IRs part. But it is often seen that it is more the myopic
vision of
the media than the short public memory which fails to follow up
regularly on
an incident in its aftermath.

Those responsible for the above lapse should not be given a second
chance to
fool around.
I was glad to see that the purging process on NFR after the disaster has
began from the top!

Harsh

>
>How can they keep making similar mistakes soon after a major
>disaster.
>
>-dheeraj
>--------------
>Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638 (Off)
>Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
>Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413 (Fax)
>Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
>Home Page: <A HREF="http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj">http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj</A>
>
>

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: Anatomy of an Accident

Date: 06 Aug 1999 12:32:54 -0500


Dear Muhammad and others,
I personally view the
Gaisal disaster as a total System failure much more than human or
equipment
failure. It is very difficult to pinpoint blame on a select few because
Iam
sure these people were doing things the way they have always been doing
and
expected to do by their superiors as there were no double checks on
them.

I have witnessed the upgradation of Route Relay Interlocking at Delhi Jn
and
New Delhi Stations in the past 6-8 months. For this the present RRI had
to
be disabled and manual locking of points was carried out in between. The
professional and time bound manner in which they did it simply amazed
me.
New Delhi took 7 days but Delhi Jn was completed in just a matter of 48
hours!

The NR gave adequete notice to public in advance. Trains passing through
these stations were diverted and a few others had new new terminals.
Some
were even cancelled.

When the activity was on, twice I passed through these stations at
almost
middle of the night. Drivers were only allowed to crawl through. Every
single point was manned by two persons and they were equipped with a
walkie-talkie over which they confirmed that things were OK when a train
passed through .

It is quite evident that a similar activity although much smaller in
size
was being carried out in a casual manner at an important station like
Kishanganj.

Harsh



-----Original Message-----
From: Muhammed Khan <ashiane@erols.email
To: HVC <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Anatomy of an Accident


>Hi Harsh:
>It feels good to read a positive response. The information filtering in
is
>really interesting and throws a great amount of light on the working of
the
>Indian Railway. Lets try this as a test analyzes with input from any
one
who
>is interested in brain storming.
>To start with lets index all the information and also get as much
>information about this accident from all sources and then analyze the
real
>cause. I look forward to informative responces and a constructive
>discussion.
>Muhammed
>--- Original Message -----
>From: HVC <hvc@vsnl.email
>To: Muhammed Khan <ashiane@erols.email
>Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 9:53 PM
>Subject: Re: Anatomy of an Accident
>
>
>> Dear Mr. Khan,
>> Your analysis of the accident is superb in
the
>> essense. I commend you for your excellent work.
>>
>> As you may be also reading on the list and I also understand that the
is
a
>> double line section and it uses lower quadrant semaphore signalling
>> equipment.
>>
>> I would be most keen to participate in in every possible way in your
>program
>> of giving constructive suggestions to the IR which might help them in
>> pin-pointing the shortcomings of the system and might help in
improving
>its
>> track record in the long run. Otherwise I too believe there is no use
of
>all
>> this loud talk on the list!
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Harsh
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Muhammed Khan <ashiane@erols.email
>> To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email
>> Cc: Apurva Bahadur <irfca@cs.email
>> Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 5:44 PM
>> Subject: Anatomy of an Accident
>>
>>
>> >IRFCA:
>> >It was tragic that an avoidable accident was not avoided. The pain
is
>more
>> >when the media high lights that there is an accident every day on
the
>> Indian
>> >Railways.
>> >I have tried to visualize what could be a hypothetical cause and is
>> attached
>> >as a word file. I think that beside the interesting discussions in
IRFCA,
>> it
>> >should take more active part in railway safety, especially when it
has
an
>> >international expertise in various disciplines.
>> > My sympathies with the families of the involved and prayer for
those no
>> >more with us.
>> >Muhammed
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

From: C.L.Zeni <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Question about IR

Date: 06 Aug 1999 16:04:37 -0500


S.B.Mehta wrote:
>
> we need not unduly worry about what the Americans have to say about
> our railways. On the day of the disaster I happened to watch the BBC
> World service and therein the newscaster categorically stated that
> the Indian Railways rates on par with the railways of the developed
> nations. Did any of you guys happen to hear this news? Also, he said
> that taking into account the volume and density of the network the
> number of accidents that have occured still fall within the
> acceptable limits. I am still a greenhorn in such matters, maybe the
> pundits in our group could elaborate from these news reports.
>
> To hell with what others have to comment sitting thousands of miles
> away and lets devise ways to provide a cleaner chit to IR.

Actually the more balanced (read: Less Hysterical/Sensationalist) media
sources here in the US are giving IR rather good marks for their safety
records, noting that when one considers the sheer volume of traffic IR
handles that the safety record, while not top of list, is certainly
pretty good.

Other US news sources that caterwaul about impending doom and
destruction every day are less complimentary :)

--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>

The Sixties ain't over till the Fat Lady gets high. - J. Garcia

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Loco Sighting ....

Date: 07 Aug 1999 00:35:03 -0500


Thanks Larry,

I am not sure about what the A in the number means.

Apurva

From: SHRINIVAS V. JOSHI <>

Subject: Vikhroli Bomb Blast ...

Date: 07 Aug 1999 02:35:22 -0500


Hi!


On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, S.Shankar wrote:

> And what is all this about the motorman making announcements on teh
> speakers? You mean there is actually a means for the driver to talk to
> his passengers? When was this system installed? Its fascinating!

This facility...a sheer waste of money. The speakers were fitted some
3-4
years ago. But hardly these are in use. Surprising, these were used
after
the trains were halted following the blast near Vikhroli.

Money must have been earned by Philips, the makers of speakers & may be
the full system. And who knows money earned by decision making officials
of CR as well- who offered the contract to Philips. The speakers , so to
speak are collecting dust, just like fans & tube lights are. Hardly any
wash is given from inside the compartments.

Bye,

Shrinivas

From: S.Shankar <>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Loco Sighting ....]

Date: 07 Aug 1999 03:05:18 -0500


Hello,
The 'A' has been used by the IR off and on, for various reasons.
Initially, it used to denote a slight variation in the model.

In the early 1990s, when air braking was being introduced on several
trains, the 'A' was freely used to denote 'Air Braked'.
In face, the usual practice was to say 18379 (say) WDM/2A. followed by
the words 'Air Brake' somewhere on the body of the engine.
The 'Air Brake' was dropped, and some of the sheds esp. on the SC
started painting green lines on the engine over the brown to denote
compatibility with air braked stock.
Nowadays, as almost all stock has provision for air brakes, and
consuquently all engines, the A is not used much any more.
Best regards.
Shankar




Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Thanks Larry,
>
> I am not sure about what the A in the number means.
>
> Apurva
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: Loco Sighting ....
> Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 08:15:18 -0700
> From: Larry Russell <lrussell@direct.email
> To: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
> References: <000201bedf6a$9865fa20$3f3ac5cb@intel>
<37A9F77F.49B065E3@direct.email <37AA848F.469C73A1@vsnl.email
>
> Note that I have also seen the A in the serial number as in 17324A
which also
> happens to be a WDM2A.
> Larry
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> > GOC is Golden Rock (at Ponmalai near Trichy - Trichrapally). The R
is a
> > rebuilt power - most likely an accident job.
> > Note that the A is a WDM 2 is in its classification letters i.e. WDM
2A ,
> > while the R is in the serial number i.e 17550R. The A variant has
different
> > type of bogies/ trucks although I have been told that these are
variants
> > with air brake capabilities (not true IMHO) or that these have AC/DC
> > transmission - doubtful. Most of the powers after one age acquire
dual
> > brakes and AC/DC trans.
> >
> > Apurva
> >
> > Larry Russell wrote:
> >
> > > Can't say what the R stands for, but I've seen several WDM2's with
an
> > > "A" suffix after the number. Don't know what that meant either.
> > > Which shed is GOC? I thought I had all the abbreviations, but
apparently
> > > missed this one.
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > Rajan Mathew wrote:
> > >
> > > > Last week spotted a GOC WDM 2 engine 18597R in Mumbai CST
....waiting
> > > > to haul the night KonkanKanya Express, I think .... Was
wondering what
> > > > R meant .... Rajan

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Late train arrivals from CR page

Date: 07 Aug 1999 08:38:07 -0500


Just saw this on the CR page.
************************************************************************
*****
6636 Ernakulam-Kurla Netravati Exp. 06.40 CLA(T) 3 hrs 36 min
8002 Howrah-Mumbai Mail (Via Nag.) 07.30 CSTM 3 hrs 15 min
2138 Ferozpur-Mumbai Punjab Mail 07.45 CSTM 2 hrs 43 min
1010 Pune-Mumbai Sinhagad Exp. 10.15 CSTM 1 hr
2124 Pune-Mumbai Deccan Queen 10.40 CSTM 55 min
1026 Pune-Mumbai Pragati Exp. 11.30 CSTM 25 min
7304 Kolhapur-Mumbai Sahyadri Exp. 12.30 CSTM 30 min
1014 Coimbatore-Kurla Exp. 12.35 CLA(T) 20 min
2620 Mangalore-Kurla Exp. 12.50 CLA(T) 1 hr 15 min
2617 1 hr 15 min
7032 Hyderabad-Mumbai Exp. 13.35 CSTM 15 min
KR4 Ratnagiri-Dadar Passenger 14.20 DR(T) 1 hr 15 min
6012 Chennai-Mumbai Exp. 15.05 CSTM 15 min
1094 Varanasi-Mumbai Mahanagari Exp. 15.15 CSTM 1 hr
************************************************************************
*****************

The Deccan Queen is nearly an hour late!! Is DQ regularly used by
Pune folks that work in Mumbai?
If so, they are probably used to erratic work schedules!!

Vijay

From: S Pai <>

Subject: Bomb destroys bridge in Assam, misses train

Date: 07 Aug 1999 10:29:52 -0500



A news article on the BBC web site says that a decoy loco at the front
of a train (they didn't say which one) going from Delhi to Guwahati
triggered a bomb, saving the train following behind it from plunging
into the river as the bridge was destroyed. The train had about a
thousand passengers on it.

Excerpt:

Railway officials said the Pakajani bridge between Bijni and
Patiladaha railway stations in the Bongaigaon district was
destroyed by a powerful explosion just after midnight. They
said train services to north-east India have been temporarily
disrupted.

Another bomb was apparently recovered from another bridge in the area
just a short while earlier. I suppose we can expect these dastardly
attempts on civilians' lives in the north-east to intensify as the
Indian Independence Day approaches in the next week. :-(

Full article at:

<A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_414000/414113.s">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_414000/414113.s</A>
tm

--Satish

From: HVC <>

Subject: Re: Loco Sighting ....

Date: 07 Aug 1999 11:44:23 -0500


Once again:

WDM2 has LV-1 vaccum brakes.
WDM2A are those fitted with LAV-1 dual brakes.
WDM2B examples have IRAB-1 straight air brakes.

Harsh


>GOC is Golden Rock (at Ponmalai near Trichy - Trichrapally). The R is a
>rebuilt power - most likely an accident job.
>Note that the A is a WDM 2 is in its classification letters i.e. WDM 2A
,
>while the R is in the serial number i.e 17550R. The A variant has
different
>type of bogies/ trucks although I have been told that these are
variants
>with air brake capabilities (not true IMHO) or that these have AC/DC
>transmission - doubtful. Most of the powers after one age acquire dual
>brakes and AC/DC trans.
>
>Apurva
>
>Larry Russell wrote:
>
>> Can't say what the R stands for, but I've seen several WDM2's with an
>> "A" suffix after the number. Don't know what that meant either.
>> Which shed is GOC? I thought I had all the abbreviations, but
apparently
>> missed this one.
>> Larry
>>
>> Rajan Mathew wrote:
>>
>> > Last week spotted a GOC WDM 2 engine 18597R in Mumbai CST
....waiting
>> > to haul the night KonkanKanya Express, I think .... Was wondering
what
>> > R meant .... Rajan
>
>

From: Steven Sliwka <>

Subject: Stupid question about IR

Date: 08 Aug 1999 01:58:46 -0500


This may be a stupid question about Indian Railways, but coming from America, I can't make sense of it.  Why do Indian Passenger Cars have 'bars' over the window openings?  I assume they don't have windows due to the heat, but why the bars?
 

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