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From: S Pai <>

Subject: Re: G.t and T.n

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:03:40 -0500



> Also can someone inform me whether GT express is fast or T.N. is fast.
The
> GT is also a 2xxx series train. How does one train differ from the
other,
> and which is the older one ?

The GT is by far the older train of the two, although it has undergone
several changes since originally introduced. The Grand Trunk Express
was
first introduced in 1929 betwen Peshawar and Mangalore (via Madras).
Later
it was changed to start from Lahore, then from Delhi; on the other side
the
destination was eventually changed to Madras after a few other
variations.
The train when first introduced took over 4 days for its journey.

The train has not much to do with the Grand Trunk Road, which is the
famous road from Peshawar to Calcutta, except for sharing the original
terminus.

The GT is only a year older than the Frontier Mail (now Golden Temple
Mail)
which started with Bombay-Peshawar service in 1928.

--Satish

From: ranand <>

Subject: Re: G.t and T.n

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:06:57 -0500


The major accident on the TN express happened in September 1985
near Sirpur Kagaznagar. In those days, the train was hauled by a double
headed WDM2. One of the AC chair cars was completely demolished
and there was serious loss of life. I think that it was simple case of
bad
track conditions causing the train to jump the rails.

Until the accident, the TN express used to leave at 0600 and arrive at
the destination (in both directions) at about 1230. I have taken this
train
countless times in pre-electrification days. After the accident, it
became a
two-night train like the GT but faster as K.S Anand pointed out. The
current
Rajdhani follows the schedule of the old TN express.

Anand

Internet: anand@watson.email
External tel: (914) 784 7054
Notes: Rangachari Anand/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
Tie-line: 863 7054

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Argentinian 5'6" gauge

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:10:59 -0500



Gang !

Coincidentally Roberto Yommi was just mentioning this subject ! We were
discussing how similar the IR and the AR were. Be sure to visit his
excellent
website on Argentinean Railways.

<A HREF="http://geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/8849/">http://geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/8849/</A>
<A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/atodotren/">http://members.xoom.com/atodotren/</A>


>Apurva: Thanks for the invitacion!!
>Don't forget that in my country the railroads were also
>English built and
>the first Argentinean locomotive (1854-Manning Wardle & Co)
>was originally
>assigned for the railroads of the India, then they sent it
>to the war of
>Crimea and from there he/she came to my country.
>For that reason we have the same broad gauge, although here
>there is also
>standard (1435 mm) and narrow (1000 mm) gauge and similar
>signals.

>Best wishes!!
>Roberto



S Pai wrote:

> Is it true that the Argentinian 5'6" gauge was a result of a mistaken
> shipment of locomotives and rolling stock intended for India to
Argentina?
> The story goes that the shipment was first commandeered for use in the
> Crimean War, and later sent to Argentina because of clerical error
after
> the war. Sounds like an urban legend :-) but stranger things have
> happened. The story begs for clarification -- were there no railways
> in Argentina before the misrouting? Was it easier to lay new lines to
> accommodate the locos and stock rather than to regauge them to
whatever
> had been planned earlier? Was it not worthwhile to re-ship everything
to
> India? Is there any shred of truth to this story?
>
> --Satish

>

From: Anand Krishnan <>

Subject: G.t and T.n

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:16:50 -0500



Hi,

>Also can someone inform me whether GT express is fast or T.N. is fast.
The
>GT is also a 2xxx series train. How does one train differ from the
other,
>and which is the older one ? Has T.N ever been involved in an
accident.
T.N is faster than G.T in the sense that the running time
of TN
is very less as a result of lesser number of stoppages en route. G.T
also
falls in this category but has more number of stoppages. T.N express was

involved in an accident of much much greater magnitude in 1985 if i am
correct and the toll was very high. It was during those days when it had
the
cream and yellow livery. I will try to get the location of accident or
might
be someone in the list would be knowing this. Beleive it or not the
running
time for T.N after that accident was reduced drastically. I knew of the
T.N
express of yester years that started from Chennai at 7.05 am and reached

NDLS the next morning around 8.30am. It was that fast. Now inspite of
the
high speed locos it takes more than 30 hours.
>
Kind regards,
Anand


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From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: MUMBAI - PUNE SINGHAD EXPRESS and GT EXPRESS

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:30:16 -0500


First,

A warm welcome to Raymond, please identify the area of the country from
where you
log in.
As regards the WDM 2 behind the WCAM 3 (It HAS to be in that order), one
must
remember that the 1009 Dn. is actually a fast passenger at the very
best. Hence it
is perfectly acceptable for a dead or light power to be sent from Mumbai
to Pune as
an attachment to the rake. The 1009 consisted of 10 coach load when it
was a double
decker, and now that it consist of normal day coaches it must be about
14 coaches
(not sure). So there is sufficient scope of hauling a WDM 2 in the same
path to
Pune. This is certainly not a train carrying its own banker with it
right from CSTM.
Also the bankers today are all the 'screaming' WCG 2s. There was a
period during the
80s when the triple coupled Alcos were the staple banking power. This
was during the
upgradation of a substation in the ghats.
The only trains which could have carried the Pune WDM 2 back to its
mother shed was
the 1325 Dn. Mumbai Pune passenger and possibly 1023 Dn. Mumbai Solapur
Siddheshwar
Express. These are trains without much priorities.

> There was also a lot of
> hulla-balloo about using normal couplings on a 21 coach rake.

This is news to me, please explain the debate about the coupling on a 21
coach rake,
which type was recommended for such a long (not necessarily heavy,
Karnatak express
is 1200 Tonnes out of Daund) rake. Were there any hints of transitional
couplers (a
smaller buckeye coupler) as used on the CRT rakes ? I think Australian
rakes use
transitional couplers for passenger rakes.

I love to hear about Porus spending the better part of late afternoon
on Vikhroli
platform. OF COURSE he was working very hard and was on duty at that
time! Last week
he was stuck at Vasai platform. I love it !

Apurva

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Re: Trivandrum Rajdhani via KR

Date: 20 Jul 1999 06:36:54 -0500


Do take a look at the on-line timetable on the IR official site -
<A HREF="http://www.indianrailway.com/railway/tt.html">http://www.indianrailway.com/railway/tt.html</A>

The Trivandrum Rajdhani leaves Hazrat Nizamuddin at 11.00 am (on Wed.
and
Thur.) and reaches Trivandrum at 5.30 am, the third day. On the return
trip, it leaves TVC at 7.30 pm (Fri. and Sat.) to reach Nizamuddin at
1.50
pm, the third day. It halts at Kota, Vadodara, Vasai Rd., Panvel,
Ratnagiri, Sawantwadi Rd., Madgaon, Kankanadi, Cannanore, Calicut and
Ernakulam Town. IMHO, it also has a technical halt at Ratlam.

Vijay

>From: Royston Ellis <royston@pan.email
>To: irfca@cs.email
>Subject: Trivandrum Rajdhani via KR
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:06:32 +0500
>
>Gang,
>
>I see from the e-mail from Poras that the Rajdhani from Trivandrum to
Delhi
>now goes via the KR. I've missed all this and don't have any current
>timetables. Could someone let me have details of days/itinerary. It
sounds
>a great journey.
>
>Thanks to Apurva for his comments on Sri Lanka By Rail; sorry no pix in
the
>book but the publisher thought sales would be too small to warrant
them. As
>usual, the publisher goofed because good pix would have increased
sales. I
>was mad when I saw the cover of the 3rd edition of India By Rail: not a
>loco in sight. Rather stupid for a book about railways.
>
>I like the photo on the back of Sri Lanka By Rail (taken by my
colleague,
>Gemunu Amarasinghe who is now the AP photographer for Sri Lanka) of the
BG
>steam B1D4-6-0, built in 1945 by Robert Stepehnson & Hawthorns,
Darlington,
>on the Nine Arch Bridge. That's the engine that usual hauls the Viceroy
>Express on tourist trips from Colombo up to Kandy or south by the
seaside
>to Galle. Alas, the reconverted wooden carriages have been replaced by
>air-conditioned ones but you can still lean out of the guard's van for
that
>smell of coal, and get peppered with soot, or even ride the footplate.
>
>In Sri Lanka, Royston is a Burger (Eurasian) name so I suppose the same
>applies to Apurva's Royston.
>
>Royston
>


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From: Royston Ellis <>

Subject: Trivandrum Rajdhani via KR

Date: 20 Jul 1999 07:06:32 -0500


Gang,

I see from the e-mail from Poras that the Rajdhani from Trivandrum to
Delhi
now goes via the KR. I've missed all this and don't have any current
timetables. Could someone let me have details of days/itinerary. It
sounds
a great journey.

Thanks to Apurva for his comments on Sri Lanka By Rail; sorry no pix in
the
book but the publisher thought sales would be too small to warrant them.
As
usual, the publisher goofed because good pix would have increased sales.
I
was mad when I saw the cover of the 3rd edition of India By Rail: not a
loco in sight. Rather stupid for a book about railways.

I like the photo on the back of Sri Lanka By Rail (taken by my
colleague,
Gemunu Amarasinghe who is now the AP photographer for Sri Lanka) of the
BG
steam B1D4-6-0, built in 1945 by Robert Stepehnson & Hawthorns,
Darlington,
on the Nine Arch Bridge. That's the engine that usual hauls the Viceroy
Express on tourist trips from Colombo up to Kandy or south by the
seaside
to Galle. Alas, the reconverted wooden carriages have been replaced by
air-conditioned ones but you can still lean out of the guard's van for
that
smell of coal, and get peppered with soot, or even ride the footplate.

In Sri Lanka, Royston is a Burger (Eurasian) name so I suppose the same
applies to Apurva's Royston.

Royston

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Need info from timetables

Date: 20 Jul 1999 09:20:22 -0500


Could someone with the new TTs please enlighten me on the following:

WR

- Does the 2955/2956 Mumbai Jaipur exp. halt at Bharuch and Godhra?
- Does the 2951 Mumbai-N.Delhi Rajdhani exp. reach New Delhi at 9.35 am?
- Does the 4707/4708 Ranakpur Exp. halt at Bharuch, Anand and Nadiad?
- Does the TT show halt times for the Trivandrum Rajdhani exp. at Kota
and Ratlam?


CR
- Does the 2065/2066 Ratnagiri Exp. halt at Nasik Rd. and Bhusaval?
When does the 2066 Exp. reach Bhusaval?
- What is the schedule for the biweekly Kurla-Patna superfast exp.
(2xxx)? What are its halts?
- Does the superdeluxe exp. continue to halt at Akola, Badnera and
Chakradharpur?

Thanks in advance,
Vijay

From: Anand Krishnan <>

Subject: Re: G.t and T.n

Date: 20 Jul 1999 10:40:41 -0500


Hi Raymond and others,
That was real spot-on info regarding the train. I have heard
TN
covering the distance in 26-27 hours roughly. I remember those wires
hovering over each carriage for communication. i remember the T.V sets
too
!! and the best of all the livery of the train. It was a very very
pleasing
site to see the trin in cream and orange livery. But i am very sure
there
was a big accident in the mid eighties i guess it is 1985ish. We could
have
a small round off "The Great IR mishaps" mails circulating. What say
others
? But we are better off with the positive aspects of IR than accidents.
Thanx Raymond for your inputs. Keep them coming.

Kind regards,
Anand


>From: raymond/Polaris@polaris.email
>To: "Anand Krishnan" <krish_nand@hotmail.email
>CC: pps@godrej.email irfca@cs.email
>Subject: Re: G.t and T.n
>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 14:26:48 +0530
>
>
>
>Dear Anand,
>
>TN used to start from Madras (then!!) Central at 7.10 a.m. and reach
New
>Delhi
>at 12.50 p.m., on the return trip the timings were New Delhi dep. at
7.00
>a.m.,
>and arrival Madras Central at 12.35 p.m. It was a 13 coach rake hauled
by a
>single WDM 2 straight through. This was the first train on the Madras -
New
>Delhi trip to bypass the "direction changes" at Wardha and Kazipet. The
TN
>had
>TV sets in the A/c chair cars (they did not have A/c sleepers back
then),
>and
>wired communication between the driver and the guard. These sets were
>detached
>from the locos after they arrived at the destination. But then, GT is
still
>my
>all time favourite train.
>
>Raymond Arogyaswamy
>
>


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From: Samit Roychoudhury <>

Subject: Re: Need info from timetables

Date: 20 Jul 1999 11:55:20 -0500


i just know that the kurla-hwh super deluxe stop at chakradharpur is
being
taken off. it was in the railway news section in the papers.

talking about the railway news section... its usually pathetic as it
only
usually contains rail sports news and about what the women's
organisation is
upto, if not the scouts. i wish they would make it more informative and
stop
using that horrible language.

From: Samit Roychoudhury <>

Subject: Re: Need info from timetables

Date: 20 Jul 1999 12:11:11 -0500


yeah indian railways has far too many stops. every politician worth
anything
tries to add more.

by the way they are planning to make the super deluxe thrice weekly. at
the
moment tere is one rake... which goes to howrah once a week, goes back
to
bombay and then makes a trip to nagpur and back. wehn it becomes thrice
weekly the nagpur coach will be included in the howrah section.

the train isnt bad at all... i've travelled in it. but kurla sucks. i
wish
they would simply move it to vt.

kharagpur is an important stop.... but badnera...makes no sense.

samit

From: Nitin Joshi <>

Subject: Re: Need info from timetables

Date: 20 Jul 1999 13:21:50 -0500


The halt at Badnera I think is due to its proximity to Amravati. Correct me if I am wrong.
Yes, Kurla SUCKS.
 
Nitin Joshi

----- Original Message -----
From: Samit Roychoudhury <mailto:samr@vsnl.email
To: Vijay Balasubramanian <mailto:VBalasubramanian@softrax.email
Cc: IRFCA <mailto:irfca@cs.email
Sent: 20.July.99 15:11
Subject: Re: Need info from timetables

yeah indian railways has far too many stops. every politician worth anything
tries to add more.

by the way they are planning to make the super deluxe thrice weekly. at the
moment tere is one rake... which goes to howrah once a week, goes back to
bombay and then makes a trip to nagpur and back. wehn it becomes thrice
weekly the nagpur coach will be included in the howrah section.

the train isnt bad at all... i've travelled in it. but kurla sucks. i wish
they would simply move it to vt.

kharagpur is an important stop.... but badnera...makes no sense.

samit

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Need info from timetables

Date: 20 Jul 1999 19:35:12 -0500




Dear Vijay,

> - Does the 2955/2956 Mumbai Jaipur exp. halt at Bharuch and Godhra?

No it skips both the stations.

> - Does the 2951 Mumbai-N.Delhi Rajdhani exp. reach New Delhi at 9.35
am?

New Delhi is reached at 9.55am.

> - Does the 4707/4708 Ranakpur Exp. halt at Bharuch, Anand and Nadiad?

4707 4708
Bharuch - -
Anand 2.34 22.37
Nadiad 2.13 23.00

> - Does the TT show halt times for the Trivandrum Rajdhani exp. at Kota
> and Ratlam?

2431 - skips Ratlam. Kota is reached at 8.15am.
2432 - Kota at 15.40hrs. Skips Ratlam.

Viraf

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrej.email
==========================

From: Nuno Nunes <>

Subject:

Date: 21 Jul 1999 05:07:43 -0500


i m intrested in indian raiways so i whish if any member of your
association want trade postal cards and photos of portugal and spain
railways if anyone are interestes write to Nuno Nunes R.
João augusto da Silva martins 117 3º d Arrifana 2200 Abrantes or
comboios@hotmail.email




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From: hvc <>

Subject: Re: Preventable accidents?

Date: 21 Jul 1999 06:14:23 -0500



>The railways ought to consider giving a private company the right to
>install and provide cellular phone service along the railway routes all
>over the country. The company would reap plenty of revenues from
>cell-phone users on the trains, and the railways could keep a few
channels
>for their own operational communications.


I think this is an excellent original idea - Is anybody listening? Iam
not
an expert on this but something tells me that the Mwave towers set up by
IR
all over may also come in picture here.

Harsh

From: hvc <>

Subject: Re: Accident..

Date: 21 Jul 1999 06:31:22 -0500


Hello Viraf and others,
In the meantime Dr. Walker has
clarified most of what you want to know so I'll not repeat all that.
Yes,
flares are used on IR too.

Basically the thing to understand here is that a superfast travelling at
110
Kmph or more requires a minimum distance of 500 -700 Mt. to come to
complete
halt. In case of super length trains like GT etc. with 24 coaches it may
be
even more. So you see, the detonator would be simply useless as by the
time
the driver/guard travels that distance to set them up, the train would
already be there. I have seen two type of flares, one as Ken described
and
the others which can be fired from a pistol. I mentioned the word
`rocket'
for the understanding of those who are not familiar with flares. The
pistol
shot flare creates a florescent illumination high in the sky which will
warn
the coming/
following train about the danger.

I know that most of such accidents occur at night or early morning hours
when apart from visibility the alertness of the crew is at trough. In
the
accident of Kalindi Exp. which was rammed in the rear by a speeding
Puroshottam Exp. at Firozabad, the train guard did indeed have flares
with
him. The train had stopped after crossing the outer signal after hitting
a
`Neelgai' and damaging the brake hoses. While the driver and his
assistant
were busy in clearing the carcass, the guard had no inkling as to what
was
happening in the front. A walkie talkie might have informed him about
the
proceedings but would he still have use the flare?!?

In the GT express collision, there might have been some gap between the
derailment and the subsequent collision(which only the goods crew would
know) but it must have taken some time for them to realise in darkness
that
the parallel road was fouled.

I once again repeat what I said earlier. The mishaps like this which can
be
avoided many times will continue unless the crews are specifically
trained
to act in such situations and that they are equipped to do the same.

Harsh

P.S. Yesterday at a customer's office, I met someone who along with a
colleague was in the GT coming back from Nellore. He said that he was in
the
fifth coach which towered above the rest in the pile that resulted. Five
people were killed in his coach but they escaped with minor bruises and
cuts. He said that he was saved because he was awake and could hold on
to
whatever he could.



-----Original Message-----
From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrej.email
To: hvc <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Monday, July 19, 1999 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Accident..


>
>> The driver and guard are supposed to carry colour rocket flares for
warning
>> but more often than not, these are missing from the kit.
>
>Hi Harsh,
>
>COLOUR ROCKET FLARES? - well this is news to me. Are you all guys aware
of
>this? I know of detonators but colour rocket flares?
>
>regards
>
>Viraf
>
>

From: hvc <>

Subject: Re: MUMBAI - PUNE SINGHAD EXPRESS and GT EXPRESS

Date: 21 Jul 1999 06:53:11 -0500


>
>I do not remember any previous accident to the GT. However the TN had a
bad
>smash near Warangal sometime in the late seventies when a coupling
snapped.
This
>was when it was changed from a 13 coach rake to the 21 coach rake with
double
>heading. There were around 40 fatalities then. There was also a lot of
>hulla-balloo about using normal couplings on a 21 coach rake.
>


Tamilnadu exp. `derailed' at Ramagundam in early '85 killing 56
people.
Then it
used to take 30 hours from delhi to madras. Now it takes over 33
following
reduction in speed after the accident. Now incidently the TN and GT both
have 24 coach rakes.

The single line track between Nagpur and Vijaywada was always notorious
but
it too a superfast accident to bring it in focus.


Harsh

From: Vdate <>

Subject: Re: Preventable accidents?

Date: 21 Jul 1999 08:04:20 -0500


Indeed the microwave network of IR is an asset which was noted even by
CIA in
its report to the US Congress many years ago! I have one more thought.
Can
we get IRFCA represent the consumer interest in IR Safety Committee at
national level? IRFCA, as a body which possesses expertise and utilizes
the
railroad and has no ax own to grind, belongs on it. Please don't tell
me
that there is no such committee.

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re: Matsya gandha express

Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:32:32 -0500


Hi Porus !
I think the Matsya Gandha late by 5 hours would be reason enough for the
train to be empty. The train must have had a extra long halt at Diva,
Thane
or Panvel. Alternatively services on the Konkan railway have been
severely
disrupted due to landslides recently and trains were terminated at Pen
and
reversed. (since a part of the track was washed away at Pen). there have
been numerous stories of ordeals of travel by the kr which has been hit
by a
series of landslides and other events caused by heavy rainfall.
Regards - Rajan

From: poras p.saklatwalla <pps@godrej.email
To: <irfca@cs.email
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:11 PM
Subject: MUMBAI - PUNE SINGHAD EXPRESS


> Yesterdays Indian Express stated that due to the monsoon the KR has
been
> disrupted massively. The Matsya gandha express was completely empty
when
> it arrived at 5.25 pm at Ghatkopar stn. Believe me folks not a single
> passenger on the entire train. I do not know if there were passengers
in
> 2AC compartment or 3AC.
> Wonder how economical the running of an empty train is ? IR after
all!!!

From: Rajan Mathew <>

Subject: Re: Trivandrum Rajdhani via KR

Date: 21 Jul 1999 09:46:17 -0500


Hi Royston

I'm Rajan from Mumbai - Great to know that you've joined us on IRFCA. I
felt
that you should have ever since I landed up with your book ("India By
Rail")
in Jan this year.

For the Konkan railway timings you can visit my site which I relaunched
recently at a new location
Konkan Railway Resource Page
<A HREF="http://members.rediff.co./skiposeidon">http://members.rediff.co./skiposeidon</A>
Infact either way - Kankanadi to Panvel or vice versa - you complete the
entire KR stretch by day on the Rajdhani

Regards - Rajan

From: Royston Ellis <royston@pan.email

> Gang,
>
> I see from the e-mail from Poras that the Rajdhani from Trivandrum to
Delhi
> now goes via the KR. I've missed all this and don't have any current
> timetables. Could someone let me have details of days/itinerary. It
sounds
> a great journey.
>

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