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From: David Trotter <>

Subject: Re: information

Date: 21 Jun 1999 07:23:51 -0500


Hi hvc;
Many thanks for your kind reply:
I would appreciate your and the "Gang" reaction to the following points.

1 Has anyone had experience of travelling on the roof of passenger
coaches?

2 Has there been a list of locomotive codes available in the past? I
would
find it of help to identify what type of loco lies behind the code
letters.

3 Today on the BBC radio it was announced that the provision of women
only
coaches on English railways for late night trains is to be investigated.
An
example of the UK following the example of IR.

4 Have we any Civil Engineers (Permanent Way) who subscribe to the Club?

5 Is deafness a problem for the crew of Diesel Locomotives? Having been
lucky enough to have had a cab ride I was very conscious of the high
level
of decibels created by the almost continuous sounding of the horn. In
addition the high temperature in the cab in late March did not help
matters.
It was great as an experience but I was glad to get back into the coach
after about half an hour on the loco.
6 One of my memories on travelling through Itarsi was to find a swathed
body
on the platform with coins placed upon it. I gathered that a poor
person
had died and that his/her body would remain until enough money was
collected
to pay for the cost of a funeral.
David T
----- Original Message -----
From: hvc <champa@del3.email
To: David Trotter <david@dtrotter.email <irfca@cs.email
Royston Ellis <royston@panlanka.email
Cc: Rodger Trotter <Rodger@TudorLodge.email
Sent: 16 June 1999 09:19
Subject: Re: information


> Dear David and Royston,
>
> Welcome to the group and we look forward to hearing your travel
experiences
> in due course.
>
> >opted to travel First Class non A/C. My wish was to enjoy the
scenery
more
> >effectively through the barred windows rather than via the yellow
tinted
> >"portholes" in the A/C coaches. What I had not allowed for was the
lack
of
> >bedroll facilities and access to any food service. What should I
have
done
> >to ensure that I had a more comfortable journey? The coach was one
of
the
> >very early 1st class non air-conditioned Coupe with two berth
compartments
> >and was thus showing its age!. Back in 1990 the compartments were
also
non
> >air conditioned but four berth which meant that I had more
interesting
> >travelling companions.
>
> For 1st class coupe connoisseurs like you me and others, the bad news
is
> that
> they are on the go now the 3AC coaches having been given preference
ahead
of
> them. In fact the last 1st class coach was built by IR over 25 years
back.
> Very few trains have these now although I have heard about the
possible
> revival of this class in future. When the 1st class was on a high, you
had
a
> coach attendant who could get you things from platform or elsewhere
for a
> small `baksheesh' . But these days hardly ever a ticket collector
comes
into
> the coaches and to top it these are poorly maintained.
> The later standardised 1st class coaches had four four-berth coupes
and
two
> two-berth coupes although there were many other non-standard designs
as
well
> including a 1st/2nd class composite coach.
>
> I was interested to hear about the railway that you are building but
was
> intrigued to hear about the 5'3" gauge(please, Iam no expert).
> I will visit your website shortly and to answer your question, No, we
do
not
> have any private preservation lines in India so far. Though the first
thing
> that I would guess is to save the rolling stock from butchers. We as
> `Friends of the National Railway Museum Society' are involved in
helping
the
> IR do that.
>
> For gauge conversion programme details, you can refer to IR yearbook
> published annually. I don't think anyone will venture to write a book
on
> this subject as it has turned out to be `not such a big deal' after
all.
>
> Harsh
>
>
>
>

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re:Fw: Catch siding

Date: 21 Jun 1999 07:37:58 -0500


Thanks for the kind comments Harsh,

Request to Muhammed to match the email address of IRFCA to
<irfca@cs.email

Apurva

hvc wrote:

> >Thanks to Muhammed for his notes. In future, please mark a
> >copy to IRFCA, there are quite a number of rail crazy janata
> >there who would love to participate in this discussion.
> >
>
> Hi!
> Initially I too thought that the message was not marked to the
list
> but since I had received two copies of the message, a closer
examination
> revealed that Muhammed has infact classified `Apurva as IRFCA' in his
email
> directory.
>
> No wonder though since Apurva no doubt is the strongest going member
of the
> list is his name is synonmous with IRFCA. He also takes credit for
> introducing so many railfans to the list. His website of course is a
prime
> motivation for many to be drawn towards the list.
>
> Bravo, and keep it up Apurva.
>
> Harsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Railbus service

Date: 21 Jun 1999 07:49:12 -0500


Gang !

As per the local papers in Pune, the Jalamb Jn. - Khamgaon branch line
(12 Kms) off
the Bhusawal - Nagpur section is getting a 76 seat BG railbus soon.
Right now a three
coach shuttle service serves this route. The present service is
inefficient,
under-utilized and nobody buys any tickets, hence in a loss. I wonder if
the railbus
would have a bus conductor ? No further details of the BG railbus
available, but if it
is something like the MG railbus (found in Merta City - Merta Road),
then there is an
inboard engine (Ashok Leyland ?) with a Hindustan Motors (Mysore)
Hydraulic convertor/
may be a Kirloskar Pneumatics trans. I suspect that there is only one
cab at one end.
Wonder how this is turned ? Anyone seen the MG railbus ?

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Lost picture of a WP

Date: 21 Jun 1999 07:52:51 -0500


Gang !

Early last year when I started using the internet for the first time, I
stumbled on a
site of an American museum (Smithsonian ?)- that site contained the
picture of a
newly manufactured white coloured WP, without clearly starting that
this was an IR
loco, the caption did say that this was a Baldwin power. I am unable to
go back to
this site or find that picture. Any one with a lead ?

Apurva

From: Tim & Anita Wakeman <>

Subject: Re: Pilferage

Date: 21 Jun 1999 07:59:14 -0500


John Lacey wrote:
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to Satish for his inputs on this subject
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: Trainhopping/Film
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:22:13 -0400
> > From: S Pai <s_pai@bigfoot.email
> > To: iti@vsnl.email
>
> What an amazing collection of stories!
> All I can add is that I can remember press reports about the theft of
> overhead wiring-and consequent train service disruptions ( on ER?
SER?)-
> in about 1982-3.
> John Lacey

John and list,

Here in the states were I live they still use code line on the nearby
rail line. The dispatcher is always getting calls of downed line,
usually caused by theft. Some places are very remote on this line and
have very few trains, giving the crook plenty of time to stash the
copper.While talking to a signal maintainer,he claims that at times it
would actually be a railway employee doing this.He would rob the wire,
then go home and wait for a phone call to go
out in the field to repair the damage!Over-time pay no less!

Regards, Tim

From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Indrayani Express

Date: 21 Jun 1999 09:58:37 -0500


Hello,
That was some while ago, so I do not remember very clearly.

It must have been in the Khaleej Times, as I've been subscribing to that
paper regularly since 1992. I never used to like Gulf News as it used to
be pronouncedly pro Pak, and at times appeared to dish out Paki
propoganda.

I read about it most definitely in the Indian Express a few days later
(so also the second incident, which most definitely was in the Indian
Express: unfortunately I do not remember what that occurance was).

I used to pick up Indian newspapers like Indian Express, The Hindu etc.
off and on from Malik News Agency in Abu Dhabi when I used to live in
that town.

Best regards.

Shankar



Nitin Joshi wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I was in Dubai at the time but don't remember reading anything about
> the incident.
>
> Out of curiosity, which newspaper was it in Gulf News or Khaleey
> Times?
>
> Thks
>
> Nitin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Shankar
> To: Apurva Bahadur
> Cc: Nitin Joshi ; ranand@us.email ; IRFCA
> Sent: 20.June.99 14:27
> Subject: Re: Indrayani Express
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> > Hello,
>
> Thats all very well, but how did the train finally come to a
> standstill?
> I was in Abu Dhabi at that time, and I only say a tiny news
> article
> about the Indrayani passengers having had a miraculous
> escape.
>
> Wans't there another such narrow escape soon afterwards?
> Involving
> another train? I don't remember too clearly, but after both
> these, the
> CR came under massive criticism.
>
> The last time I read of a train having been diverted onto a
> catch siding
> was sometime in 1978 or even earlier: the (then)
> Bombay-Daund-Manmad
> Passenger had to be diverted onto the catch siding after its
> brakes
> failed. The Indian Express had carried a picture taken of
> the train
> head on, from atop the catch siding. (location somewhat
> similar to your
> pic, only in your pic, the train is at the bottom of teh
> siding and
> perpendicular to it.) I even remember the engine in the 1978
> pic: it was
> a WCM/2.
> Best regards.'
> Shankar
> >
> >
> > Nitin Joshi wrote:
> >
> >
> > On the 1st December 1994, the Indrayani Express rolled
> down the ghats
> > from Thakurwadi to Karjat yard (13 Kms) without a driver/
> assistant in
> > the loco or the guard in the brake van.
> > This is what I have understood of the circumstances
> leading to the
> > disaster. The official verdict, I suppose we will never
> know.
> > The train was late, it was 2200 Hrs at Thakurwadi (normal
> is 2000
> > Hrs). As soon as the WCM 5 loco stopped at TKW, a fire
> started in the
> > control compartment. The driver dropped the pantograph
> fearing that
> > the presence of high voltage would aggravate the fire.
> With the
> > dropping of the panto, the air compressor stopped.
> > The Indrayani was converted to air brake rake only a month
> back and
> > the drivers were newly converted from vacuum brakes with
> training
> > given only for one day. The reasoning was that all the
> drivers of the
> > Mumbai division have worker air braked EMUs for many years
> before
> > promotion to the passenger and mail driver grade. However
> the air
> > brakes of the EMU are of electro-pneumatic type, while the
> > mail/express have twin pipe graduated release brakes.
> > As per the driver, wooden wedges were put on the wheels of
> the dead
> > loco. The fire intensified and the driver went to the TKW
> cabin to
> > call the power controller (sitting in CSTM building) to
> appraise him
> > of the emergency. All this time the point controlling the
> TKW catch
> > siding, were set for the hills. But the timer ran out and
> the points
> > were now set for the main line and the line clear signal
> was given.
> > The situation was that the loco was really ablaze by now
> and the
> > assistant was also out of the cab. Apparently, the brake
> valve of the
> > air braked loco (which itself was converted from pure
> vacuum brakes),
> > had its 'sense' reversed. So if the vacuum braked loco,
> the lever was
> > pulled to operate the brakes, now the lever was pushed to
> operate the
> > brakes. The assistant was 'from the ranks' - a person who
> joined the
> > IR in a clerical trade and got a transfer to (higher
> paying) driving
> > category much later in his career. Maybe he saw the brake
> valve in the
> > applied position and thought that the driver had forgotten
> to operate
> > the brakes and actually released the brakes.
> > In any case the brake pressure was now zero and the brakes
> released.
> > The train started to roll from TKW to Karjat Yard at over
> estimated
> > 100 Kmph (max permitted speed in 55 Kmph) on 1in 37
> gradients. The was
> > also a report of an electrical fire within the first or
> second coach.
> > Many of the passengers had no idea that the train had no
> driver, they
> > just thought that the train was going quite fast. The
> brake blocks on
> > many coaches had molten and fallen off, when some of the
> passengers
> > tried to apply the brakes by the alarm chain.
> > The drivers/ guard and some of the passengers were trapped
> at TKW till
> > 0300 Hrs when the line was reopened. In the meantime the
> police party
> > at TKW walked 13 Kms in the night to Karjat to check for
> any
> > causalities thrown off from the train, or any damage to
> the tracks.
> > The driver was suspended from the footplate for 2 years
> and was
> > subsequently cleared to drive mail/express trains. He
> retired with a
> > clear service record.
> > Failures as I see :
> >
> > 1. The driver and the assistant, their training on how
> to handle
> > multiple emergencies.
> > 2. The administration on their failure to provide
> adequate training
> > on air braked locos and rakes in difficult ghat
> section. The
> > rules that apply on the rest of the IR do not
> necessarily hold
> > true in the steep ghats
> > 3. The station master of the TKW cabin for allowing the
> clearly dead
> > and burning WCM 5 on the main line. He could have put
> back the
> > point to the catch siding position and train would
> have rolled
> > into the hill.
> >
> > Maybe many such incidents have taken place on the IR but
> they do not
> > come into the public notice.
> > The Mumbai division tried many times to duplicate the
> conditions with
> > the same rake and loco at the same spot, but could not
> succeed in
> > rolling the Indrayani Express once again. So what really
> happened that
> > day is still a bit of mystery.
> >
> > Apurva
> >
> > I do not remember hearing or reading about the
> Indrayani
> > incident in theBhore Ghat's. Can somebody enlighten
> me!!!

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Re: Photography -- and idiot restrictions

Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:12:20 -0500


Nice to see the club bursting with activity. Keep up the good work,
gang.
Apurva, Krishna, Shirish, great photos - keep 'em coming!!!
A warm welcome to Mr. Royston Ellis - it's great to have you 'on board'
(pun intended). I do have your book (India by Rail) which
is a definite asset to my collection. Looking forward to interesting
experiences & travelogues from you.


>The burning question is why a simple thing like photographing the
innocuous
>trains and stations should hurt the feelings of IR folk - security
reasons
>or whatever. One can somewhat try to understand this ill-logic about
>photography of strategic stations, workshops, bridges and dams but why
in
>heaven should it result in ban on photography on entire IR.
>
>
I agree with Harsh that this ban is irritating and unwarranted. Let me
mention
here that I have extensively used my camcorder
during my last two visits to India (covering nearly 15 different rail
journeys and
5 loco. journeys) which has added nearly 24 hrs. of
precious IR footage to my existing train video collection. Being rather
naive
about these restrictions, I used my camcorder left and right
including major stations, shots of loco. changeovers, etc. Of course,
all video
shots during the loco. rides had prior approval!
The only time I was hassled was trying to capture the departing Rajdhani
exp.
from Mumbai Central. Fortunately, I was let off with a warning.
Seems like the authorities are pretty sensitive when it comes to the
Rajdhani
trains from Mumbai Central. Has someone had similar
experience(s) capturing Rajdhanis from other terminii? The first time
I ran into
trouble was in summer of '85 when I went ahead and
snapped up the twin WDM2-unit (attached to what else, the Rajdhani)
right in
front of the driver's eyes - they almost took away my film :-(
On hindsight, this was a foolish move, since India was going through
outbreaks of
terrorism at that time.

>Vijay

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Catch siding

Date: 21 Jun 1999 10:33:53 -0500


Why leave out the gang at IRFCA out of such juicy discussions ?

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: information

Date: 21 Jun 1999 19:27:23 -0500


> 4 Have we any Civil Engineers (Permanent Way) who subscribe to the
Club?

None that I know, however the Indian Rail Institute of Track technology
is right here
in Pune, where I stay, sooner or later one is bound to cross one of them
and hopefully
induct them. If you have a specific query for them, please ask, it would
be a good
way to break the ice.

> 5 Is deafness a problem for the crew of Diesel Locomotives? Having
been
> lucky enough to have had a cab ride I was very conscious of the high
level
> of decibels created by the almost continuous sounding of the horn. In
> addition the high temperature in the cab in late March did not help
matters.
> It was great as an experience but I was glad to get back into the
coach
> after about half an hour on the loco.

This problem is being solved in the WDM 2s by moving the horn trumpets
from front of
the driver's glass to top of the roof. Most of the locos undergoing POH
seemed to be
modified with this change.
You have not seen a noisy loco until you have seen a WCG 2. Although not
diesel, the
WCG 2 is found all over the Mumbai - Pune, Mumbai - Igatpuri route. To
walk from one
cab to another with all the machinery running is a challenge. The
various blowers etc
try to suck loose clothes in the air inlets as well. The tragedy is that
the shrill
sound is from the dynamic brake blowers, which by a perverted design run
all the
time, even when not braking.
The diesel drivers develop a voice which enable then to carry on long
conversations
clearly without shouting. It is a matter of speaking in a frequency
which stands over
the rumble and the banging of the loose sheets in the cab.

> 6 One of my memories on travelling through Itarsi was to find a
swathed body
> on the platform with coins placed upon it. I gathered that a poor
person
> had died and that his/her body would remain until enough money was
collected
> to pay for the cost of a funeral.

Death and Indian Railways goes hand in hand. One encounters dead bodies
all the time.
One such incident is enough to sap the joy that the railways provide for
a long time.
Apart from the accident and suicides, a number of homeless and
travelling people die
on the railway premises or in passenger trains.

Apurva

From: Dr. M S M Saifullah <>

Subject: Re: High-speed coaches from RCF et al.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 20:33:28 -0500


At 7:16 pm +0900 21/6/99, Joydeep Dutta wrote:

Hello!

>Thereis no question of doing windtunnel tests on IR all their
aerodynamic
>styling is just for cosmetic looks. The high speed coaches that were
built
>by the RCF for 160kph gave poor results in the oscillation trails after
>130kph and hence are restricted to that speed and the rake of the Delhi
>Amritsar Swarna Shatabdi is composed of those pseudo high speed coaches
IRY
>/IR 20.

Actually, I had guessed that the high speed coaches from RCF would not
perform well.

If we look at the 110kmph coaches at high speed, it becomes quite clear
that lateral forces start to increase after about 100kmph. I had some
pretty bad experience with Karnataka Express (NDLS <-> SBC) and
Ratnachal
Express (VSKP <-> BZA) when they travelled at speeds exceeding 100kmph.
The
lateral forces increased so much that at point I thought, the train is
going to jump off the rails!

The lateral forces also pose a serious problem to the integrity of the
rails. The rails might bend slightly and that could increase the chances
of
fatigue fracture. Therefore, more maintenance is required.

Now the possible solutions:

All the solutions should aim at reduction of the lateral forces so as to
make the train move as ONE UNIT.

One approach is clearly to put lateral fast damping shock-absorbers,
connecting one coach to another (two are needed for a stable
performance).
This would minimise to a great extent the lateral forces generated at
high
speeds. My guess is that speeds upto 160kmph would be achieveable
without a
great deal of hassle. The research required here would not be more
demanding hopefully...

The next solution is a bit costly. This would involve sharing of two
ends
of the coaches by a single wheel set. The coaches should rest on fast
damping shock absorbers. Therefore, the entire train, except the front
and
rear, would share the wheel-sets. The advantage here is that the train
would now move as ONE UNIT. The lateral forces would be almost
eliminated
assuming that the track is stable and fault-free.

The disadvantage as one can see is clearly, if anything goes wrong with
one
wheel-set the entire rake would be stranded. One can have stand-by rakes
just in case.... One can also use this rake for intercity expresses
rather
than long-distance trains.

Any ideas???

Regards
Saifullah

Dr. M S M Saifullah, Researcher
Nanostructure Technology Research Group
Device Physics Research Laboratory
NTT Basic Research Laboratories
3-1, Morinosato Wakamiya, Atsugi-shi
Kanagawa Pref., 243-0198
Japan

Email: saif@aecl.email Tel: 0081 (0)462 40 2634
Fax: 0081 (0)462 40 4317

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: David Trotter's queries:

Date: 21 Jun 1999 20:44:13 -0500


Hi David:

> Having grown up in the area have you any stories of
> the workings of the Darjeeling Line?

I remember the old freight station in the middle of
the town when it still had goods trains coming in. Two
sidings were already disused then, but on a good day
the place was a bustle of activity. Today the ropeway
which goes down towards Pulbazar from the station is
still operational, but the rail extension is long gone.

I used to go to the passenger station most evenings
to watch the paired trains from NJP coming in at 1630;
the passenger followed a few minutes later by the mail.
there was a fair bit of shunting at this point, at the
end of which both rakes would be parked on sidings and
the Kurseong train would be ready for its 1700 departure
from No. 3 platform, usually with 782 in charge.

Never got to visit the works, though. However, I am
going home in Oct so may yet get the chance.

> Has anyone had experience of travelling on the roof
> of passenger coaches ?

I did this several times in the 1980's on the good old
Tinsukia Mail through Bihar (I shudder to think of it
now, and definitely do not recommend the practice !).
I would come out on the vestibule platform, grab
a hand hold, swing on to the buffer and climb the
rungs to the top, while the train is doing 80km/h.
Then sit peacefully on the roof. A friend and I
sat through the tunnel near Jamalpur, and had our
faces blackened by soot.

To repeat, with hindsight: this is most certainly a
DANGEROUS activity, and I do not recommend that anyone
should try it. Particularly on electrified or MG lines.


--
JS
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: High-speed coaches from RCF et al.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 20:53:58 -0500


Dr. M S M Saifullah wrote:
> All the solutions should aim at reduction of the lateral forces so as
to
> make the train move as ONE UNIT.
The first thing this implies is that the existing
link and hook coupler would have to be replaced by
something that allows less lateral sway between
coaches.

> The next solution is a bit costly. This would involve sharing of two
ends
> of the coaches by a single wheel set.
This, of course, is the French TGV solution. One of the
observed advantages is that, even during severe accidents,
train parting is reduced. In contrast, the German ICE is
made of seperate vehicles, which may have contributed to
loss of life in the bad accident they had last year.
Also, it should be remembered that these trains achieve
high speeds on reserved tracks, with high-radius curves
and superior standards.

> The disadvantage as one can see is clearly, if anything goes wrong
with one
> wheel-set the entire rake would be stranded. One can have stand-by
rakes
> just in case.... One can also use this rake for intercity expresses
rather
> than long-distance trains.
In any case, the practical application of shared-bogie
stock on IR would be far away, as we will take several
more years to reach the point where 300km/h operation
would be justified. I suppose could locomotive-hauled trains
could be gradually accelerated to 230 km/h or so well
before that, with changes in track, signalling, suspension
and aerodynamics (at these speeds, reduction of drag
and rolling resistance would result in substantial
fuel saving).


--
JS
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: High-speed trains etc.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 21:53:02 -0500


"Dr. M S M Saifullah" wrote:

> I think the existing link and hook coupler should be present in order
not
> to strain the lateral shock-absorbers too much in the longitudinal
> direction. The function of the lateral shock-absorbers is just to take
care
> of lateral oscillations. It should not participate in pulling of the
> coaches.

I just remembered: the TGV power unit is attached to the
rake with a conventional link coupler. Wonder how they
achieve lateral damping.

> Jayant, what kind of work do you do at TELCO?

I am with R&D as an industrial designer (ex NID, Ahmedabad).

> The Shinkansen trains, however, have separate coaches with lateral
> shock-absorbers. They run on extremely stable tracks. The Japanese
railways
> companies are planning to increase the speed by staggering 400kmph in
some
> of the south-bound routes (Tokyo <-> Fukouka).

This implies dedicated tracks again, of course.
Interestingly, Shinkansen trains have all their
wheels powered, while the TGV and ICE have power
cars at each end.

> I think the first step should be to sort out the high speed coaches
and
> aerodynamic design of the locomotives (in that order). After that
gradual
> improvements in track and signalling would do the trick. The currently
> signalling seems alright for speeds upto 150kmph or so. For 200kmph,
the
> signalling information needs to avalable even in the locomotive.

The other issue would be the traffic patterns on the trunk routes
of today, with several slower trains and freights jostling
for space.

Which is the best high speed track stretch in India ?
Is it the Bhopal-Agra section of CR ?


--
JS
--

From: Dr. M S M Saifullah <>

Subject: Re: High-speed coaches from RCF et al.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 21:57:40 -0500


At 12:53 pm +0900 22/6/99, Jayant S wrote:

Hello!

>> All the solutions should aim at reduction of the lateral forces so as
to
>> make the train move as ONE UNIT.
>
>The first thing this implies is that the existing
>link and hook coupler would have to be replaced by
>something that allows less lateral sway between
>coaches.

I think the existing link and hook coupler should be present in order
not
to strain the lateral shock-absorbers too much in the longitudinal
direction. The function of the lateral shock-absorbers is just to take
care
of lateral oscillations. It should not participate in pulling of the
coaches.

The reason why I am in favour of this idea is that it is cost-effective
and
requires little redesigning of the coach body.

Jayant, what kind of work do you do at TELCO?

>> The next solution is a bit costly. This would involve sharing of two
ends
>> of the coaches by a single wheel set.
>
>This, of course, is the French TGV solution. One of the
>observed advantages is that, even during severe accidents,
>train parting is reduced. In contrast, the German ICE is
>made of seperate vehicles, which may have contributed to
>loss of life in the bad accident they had last year.
>Also, it should be remembered that these trains achieve
>high speeds on reserved tracks, with high-radius curves
>and superior standards.

This solution is also adopted by Japanese. Odakyu Super Express as shown
at:

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Mesa/7368/Japan/Odakyu/romance.html">http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Mesa/7368/Japan/Odakyu/romance.html</A>

has similar configuration.

The Shinkansen trains, however, have separate coaches with lateral
shock-absorbers. They run on extremely stable tracks. The Japanese
railways
companies are planning to increase the speed by staggering 400kmph in
some
of the south-bound routes (Tokyo <-> Fukouka).

>> The disadvantage as one can see is clearly, if anything goes wrong
with one
>> wheel-set the entire rake would be stranded. One can have stand-by
rakes
>> just in case.... One can also use this rake for intercity expresses
rather
>> than long-distance trains.
>
>In any case, the practical application of shared-bogie
>stock on IR would be far away, as we will take several
>more years to reach the point where 300km/h operation
>would be justified. I suppose could locomotive-hauled trains
>could be gradually accelerated to 230 km/h or so well
>before that, with changes in track, signalling, suspension
>and aerodynamics (at these speeds, reduction of drag
>and rolling resistance would result in substantial
>fuel saving).

I think the first step should be to sort out the high speed coaches and
aerodynamic design of the locomotives (in that order). After that
gradual
improvements in track and signalling would do the trick. The currently
signalling seems alright for speeds upto 150kmph or so. For 200kmph, the
signalling information needs to avalable even in the locomotive.

Regards
Saifullah

From: Dr. M S M Saifullah <>

Subject: Re: High-speed trains etc.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 22:59:09 -0500


At 1:53 pm +0900 22/6/99, Jayant S wrote:

Hello!

>> I think the existing link and hook coupler should be present in order
not
>> to strain the lateral shock-absorbers too much in the longitudinal
>> direction. The function of the lateral shock-absorbers is just to
take care
>> of lateral oscillations. It should not participate in pulling of the
>> coaches.
>
>I just remembered: the TGV power unit is attached to the
>rake with a conventional link coupler. Wonder how they
>achieve lateral damping.

I have to check the design in the house. I am at the work currently. My
recollection on this issue is that the shared wheel-set configuration
eliminates most of the lateral oscillations. The coach itself rests on a
huge pneumatic shock absorber which makes the ride extremely smooth and
it
seems the glass with water upto the brim remains stable during the ride.

>> Jayant, what kind of work do you do at TELCO?
>
>I am with R&D as an industrial designer (ex NID, Ahmedabad).

Why not try designing coaches part time :)

I work for NTT Basic Research Laboratories, just in the suburbs of Tokyo
(ex-IISc, Bangalore -> University of Cambridge). My work is related with
shrinking of electronic circuits to less than 100 angstroms.

>> I think the first step should be to sort out the high speed coaches
and
>> aerodynamic design of the locomotives (in that order). After that
gradual
>> improvements in track and signalling would do the trick. The
currently
>> signalling seems alright for speeds upto 150kmph or so. For 200kmph,
the
>> signalling information needs to avalable even in the locomotive.
>
>The other issue would be the traffic patterns on the trunk routes
>of today, with several slower trains and freights jostling
>for space.

Yes, I overlooked that problem. The solution of this problem is
expensive,
i.e., requires laying of two more tracks for up and down routes.

>Which is the best high speed track stretch in India ?
>Is it the Bhopal-Agra section of CR ?

That would be my guess. What about the Grand Chord from Asansol ->
Dhandbad
-> Gaya -> Mughalsarai?

The toughest track is in Visakhapatnam - Kirandul section. Some of the
gradients as well as curves are unparalleled in the Indian Railway
network.
Hitachi and ABB locos were tested for their effectiveness on this
stretch.
That is what I have read about it.

Regards
Saifullah

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Intermediate Block Section

Date: 21 Jun 1999 23:04:50 -0500


Very apt explanation for the purpose of IBS from Chinmay. In future
please mark
a copy to IRFCA for the gang to participate. It is true that IBS is
found only
when the distance between two stations is a lot. Thus if 11 Kms separate
two
stations, it makes sense to break the distance into two smaller sections
and
allow two trains into them.

Apurva

Dwarikesh Goswami wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
> To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 2:40 PM
> Subject: Intermediate Block Section
>
> > Gang !
> >
> > What is an Intermediate Block Section or IBS ? Typically these
> > are signals in the middle of a long section like Neral -
> > Karjat. Who controls these signals and why are they required ?
> >
> > Apurva
>
> Hi Apurva,
> An IBS is a mechanism to increase the track usage in sections
where
> 'Absolute Block System' is operational.In an absolute block system
only one
> train is permitted in one block.So the idea is to keep the block
length to
> the minimum and increase track usage.The railways try to keep the
block
> length in the area of 4-8 kms.If the inter-station distance is
> more(i.e.10-15 kms.) an IBS is installed to decrease the block length
and
> enhance track usage. An IBS has
> signals installed in the same pattern of a
> station.(i.e.distant-home-starter-adv.starter).A driver has to treat
an IBS
> as a station and he cannot jump these signals.On the WR IBS is
installed
> between
> Dahanu-Gholvad, Gholvad-Umergaon, Sanjan-Bhilad,
> Vapi-Udwada,Palghar-Boisar,Dahanu-Vangaon.For e.g. The distance from
> Dahanu to
> Gholvad is 11 kms.At a time only one train in one direction is allowed
on
> this strecth of 11 kms.An IBS has been installed at the 6th km. thus
> dividing the Dahanu-Gholvad block into Dahanu-IBS, IBS-Gholvad
blocks.Once a
> train
> going from Dahanu to Gholvad crosses the IBS another train from
Dahanu can
> be given the proceed signal.If there was no IBS the leading train
would have
> to reach Gholvad(11 kms.) for the trailing train to be given the
green.Now
> the leading train has just to cross the IBS(6 kms) for the trailing
train to
> be given the green therby increasing track usage.
> IBS is controlled by the preceding station.Here,the Dn IBS is
> controlled by Dahanu and the Up IBS by Gholvad.
>
> Regards,
> Chinmay Goswami

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: High-speed trains etc.

Date: 21 Jun 1999 23:20:56 -0500


Dr. M S M Saifullah wrote:

> I have to check the design in the house. I am at the work currently.
My
> recollection on this issue is that the shared wheel-set configuration
> eliminates most of the lateral oscillations. The coach itself rests on
a
> huge pneumatic shock absorber which makes the ride extremely smooth
and it
> seems the glass with water upto the brim remains stable during the
ride.
The Spanish Talgo solution is also interesting:
A single axle per coach at one end, with the
other end hanging on to the next coach. All
this with tilting capability too.

> Why not try designing coaches part time :)
Ah, wouldn't mind that at all. Unfortunately
Telco is long out of the railway business.

> Yes, I overlooked that problem. The solution of this problem is
expensive,
> i.e., requires laying of two more tracks for up and down routes.
I guess it will come in as the economics of the
situation justify.

High speed rail feasibility is linked with the
future of domestic aviation. At present Indian
domestic air travel is relatively expensive compared
to similar distances in most countries. A significant
drop in air fares (the aborted Tata-SIA tieup would
have made this likely) could increase competition
for the Rajdhani services, which would have to be
met by IR with lower fares and/or higher speeds.
In Europe 300 km/h train services are competive
against air travel in the 400-600 km bracket, but
this would be different in India.

> >Which is the best high speed track stretch in India ?
> >Is it the Bhopal-Agra section of CR ?
>
> That would be my guess. What about the Grand Chord from Asansol ->
Dhandbad
> -> Gaya -> Mughalsarai?
Haven't travelled that way, but Mughalsarai-Kanpur-Delhi
is pretty fast too.

I wonder which section can be most easily upgraded
to 200km/h ?


--
JS
--

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: LET US HAVE AN OPINION POLL !

Date: 22 Jun 1999 00:07:35 -0500


Gang,
A brilliant Idea has struck me ! why dont we have an opinion poll
amongst
the list of members on various subjects of IR : vis a vis

Best steam class
best ng line
best mg steam class
best trunk route of india
best train spotting and loco spotting stations
best liked train amongst fellow railfans.etc. etc. etc.etc.etc.etc.
I mean if two or three of us get together and form a questionnaire then
I
think we will be a grand success !

Harsh, Appu, Shanku, Viraf come on guys get going


I will be most happy to help you all out.

Your feedback please.



PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: Karthik Giddu <>

Subject: Marklin Train Sets.

Date: 22 Jun 1999 01:42:59 -0500


Hi Gang,
Can anyone tell me where do u get marklin Model train sets in India.
In case of any other country what would the price of a basic model set.
Thanks,
Karthik

From: Nitin Joshi <>

Subject: Re: Marklin Train Sets.

Date: 22 Jun 1999 02:41:27 -0500


I don't think the Model Sets will be available in India. Anyhow here
is the link to their Web Site. Hope it helps.
 
<<A HREF="http://www.marklin.com/>">http://www.marklin.com/></A>
 
Rgds
 
Nitin Joshi

----- Original Message -----
From: Karthik Giddu <mailto:gidduk@vsnl.email
To: irfca@cs.email <mailto:irfca@cs.email
Sent: 22.June.99 04:42
Subject: Marklin Train Sets.

Hi Gang,
Can anyone tell me where do u get marklin Model train sets in India.
In case of any other country what would the price of a basic model set.
Thanks,
Karthik

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