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From: Sunil Bajpai <>

Subject: Re: Why does IR have a ladies coach was: Fire in EMU

Date: 11 May 1999 22:02:49 -0500


Just the society's way of showing concern for the comfort and safety of
women?

Indian Railways have reserved accommodation for other groups too
although to
a very limited extent, such as military personnel!

Just out of school I appeared for an examination where the question was:

Why do Railways charge reduced fare for children up to a certain age? It
was
a multiple choice question with responses restricted to:

a) They weigh less
b) They occupy less space
c) They cannot afford to pay for their passage
d) something else equally indefensible

I spent an inordinate amount of time puzzling over this mystery and then
gave up in disgust! Don't know the official and definitive answer till
date.

IR also has concessions for other type of rail users, e.g. freedom
fighters
or senior citizens.

There would, perhaps, be no clear yardstick by which to judge the
reasonableness or the need to extend such facilities. Any suggestions or
comments?

Sunil

-----Original Message-----
From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email
Cc: Donald L. Mills, Jr <dmills@marshall.email
Date: 11 May 1999 15:10
Subject: [Fwd: Fire in the EMU was Ladies special EMU]


> I take the assistance of the gang to explain to dear Don why
>Indian Railways has a separate Ladies coach on every train.
>It is nothing like Hindu or Muslim but a question of the
>women's security. If women travel together they are less
>likely to be faced with any crimes against them. I wonder if
>Don has ever heard of the terms 'outraging one's modesty' ? So
>if there are no men around it is easier for women to preserve
>their modesty. Please note that women can travel in any coach
>they wish or one in which they have a reservation but men
>cannot travel in the 'ladies only coach'. However children
>under 12 of either sex can travel in the ladies compartment,
>which is unreserved.
>Gang please contribute.
>
>Apurva
>

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Oddities

Date: 11 May 1999 22:53:30 -0500



>Actually, there is a letter in the Tamil language 'a rolling 'rhha'
>sound. I do not think this letter exists in any other language, except
>probably Malayalam.


Atleast French does have that tounge twister(literally).

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 11 May 1999 22:58:47 -0500


>I think the following bg engines have been plinthed elsewhere in India:
>1. Garratt at the Kharagpur workshops and
>2. Fairy Queen's sister engine "Express" (which incidentally worked the
>first train in Eastern India) at the Jamalpur Workshop.
>Of course, these are not open to the public. I can't thinkof any other
>bg engines preserved elsewhere.


P class Garratt at KGP is not plinthed rather it is in a sorry state.
There
are many more. But I doubt if ordinary mortals can get into the sighting
distance of these examples parked/plinthed within the confines of Rly.
Works/Establishments.

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos; Montreal Loco Works

Date: 11 May 1999 23:11:10 -0500



>>120 WPs were also built by Montreal loco works, Canada.
>>
>The Canadian-built locos in use on IR were built before independence,
no?
>(India's, that is; the Canadian equivalent to the Aug. 15, 1947 tryst
with
>destiny is July 1, 1867)
>


The first WPs were built in 1947 but Candian examples followed later,
starting 1949. The Canadian War Department locos (CWDs) did come earlier
in
1943-45.

Harsh

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 11 May 1999 23:17:50 -0500


Sorry Harsh and others, must have been sleeping when I wrote this mail,
yes the
B class from Yawatmal - Murtajapur indeed. This does fall in the
Bhusawal
division. Thanks for updating the BG plintings. The WDS 1 is the ex US
army 44
tonne shunters ? I saw a long line of these locos with Caterpillar
engines for
scrapping at the Bandra Marshaling yard atleast 8 years ago.

Apurva

Harsh Vardhan wrote:

> >> Bhusaval also boasts of a WP 7000, a B/1 766 and B/1 768.
> >
> >Does that mean 3 WPs (or variants) and a WG 10253 at Bhusawal ?In
that case
> BSL
> >is the only place in India with more than one BG plinthed loco apart
from
> the
> >NRM.
>
> No, no. You got it wrong. B/1 is a NG(2'6") class of loco which were
in use
> at Murtazapur-Yawatmal and Barsi Light Rly.
>
> How many other BG locos are plinthed in India leaving the NRM and the
Nehru
> >Science centre in Mumbai ? I cannot think of any !
> >
>
> Plinthed for public?!? Not really but there are a few examples I can
think
> of. Sonepur(WP), Jhansi(WP), DLW(WDS1).
>
> Harsh

From: Dr. S. Parthasarathy <>

Subject: Railway safety -- IEEE

Date: 11 May 1999 23:18:13 -0500


Hello gang,

I am enclosing a mail I received from the Institution of Electrical &
Electronic Engineers (IEEE), the world's largest body of professionals.
If you have any information or inputs or ideas and suggestions please
contact Ms. Bretz directly.

***QUOTE
Dr. Parthasarathy:

I am interested in your paper on railway safety in
developing nations, published last december. Where might I
obtain a copy? This is a topic I would like to see covered
in IEEE Spectrum.
....
....
Best regards,
Elizabeth Bretz

________________________________________
Elizabeth A. Bretz, Senior Associate Editor
IEEE Spectrum Magazine
3 Park Avenue, 17th Floor
New York, NY 10016-5997
Tel: 212.419.7552 Fax: 212.419.7570
E-mail: e.bretz@ieee.email
Spectrum on the Web: <A HREF="http://www.spectrum.ieee.org">http://www.spectrum.ieee.org</A>

***UNQUOTE

--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Dr. S. Parthasarathy Phone: + 49 -531-3913328
I F R A FAX: + 49 -531-3915197
Tech. Univ. Braunschweig
Langer Kamp 8
38106 Braunschweig - GERMANY

e mail : partha@ifra.email
<A HREF="http://www.ifra.ing.tu-bs.de/~m05/partha/partha.en.html">http://www.ifra.ing.tu-bs.de/~m05/partha/partha.en.html</A>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: [Fwd: Why does IR have a ladies coach was: Fire in EMU

Date: 11 May 1999 23:21:08 -0500


Thanks to Sunil for his inputs. For such subjects it is better
if you send this mail only to the IRFCA even if it is
addressed to me as I would read it there in any case. This
will enable our enlightened panel to contribute and debate on
such interesting subjects.

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 11 May 1999 23:25:13 -0500


I am trying to list only the BG locos which are plinthed. It takes a lot
of efforts
and determination to plinth such a large beast.
Bhuswal definately deserves to plinth two BG locos. What about the great
centres of
BG steam traction like Jhansi, Asansol, Daund !

Apurva

Shankar wrote:

> Hello,
> I think the following bg engines have been plinthed elsewhere in
India:
> 1. Garratt at the Kharagpur workshops and
> 2. Fairy Queen's sister engine "Express" (which incidentally worked
the
> first train in Eastern India) at the Jamalpur Workshop.
> Of course, these are not open to the public. I can't thinkof any other
> bg engines preserved elsewhere.
> Anyone? Harsh?
> We might have some more in the near future, with plans on for opening
> more museums in Madras and Varanasi.
> Best regards/
> Shankar
>
> Apurva Bahadur wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, a few of them have survived indeed. Although the only one to
reach a
> > > display pedestal so far is WG 10253 at former steam loco shed,
Bhusaval.
> > > Quite deservedly
> > > as BSL was the largest steam loco shed in the country holding over
150 locos
> > > consisting of over 100 WGs.
> > >
> > > Bhusaval also boasts of a WP 7000, a B/1 766 and B/1 768.
> >
> > Does that mean 3 WPs (or variants) and a WG 10253 at Bhusawal ?In
that case BSL
> > is the only place in India with more than one BG plinthed loco apart
from the
> > NRM.How many other BG locos are plinthed in India leaving the NRM
and the Nehru
> > Science centre in Mumbai ? I cannot think of any !
> >
> > Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: DMRC Website

Date: 11 May 1999 23:30:24 -0500


> On a more serious note, when the civil works commenced on teh Calcutta
> metro, press announcements were made of similar metro underground
> networks in (among other cities) Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Ahmedabad and
> Kanpur. (I'm not too sure about Poona and Hyderabad).

The latest entrant for a light suburban railway is Thane itself suburb
of
Mumbai. I guess the 'city in a valley' sort of makeup of TNA lends
itself to
a ring railway sort of layout. Pune has had numerous surveys done but I
doubt is anything concrete has started.

Apurva

> But the bitter experience with the construction of the Cal metro made
> sure that all other metro plans were quickly buried deep deep down
where
> they can never be found again: remember all those traffic
> snarls,dangerously deep trenches over more than half the road width
with
> the hopelessly clogged traffic getting further choked, relaying and
> realigning drainage lines and tram tracks, social ills with
> drunkenness,brawls and prostitution rampant among the construcion
gangs
> which more often than not used to spill out onto the roads, and all
this
> digging and clogging and inconvenience surfacing on a new road every
> day, and simply going on and on for DECADES on end!
> Indeed, the Cal metro was virtually dug by hand, and built by hand.Or
so
> it seemed!
> Not to mention the flooding soon after teh metro started.
>
> Now the Delhi metro.Only proves that the experiences on teh Cal metro
> have taught the IR pundits up in Rail Bhavan a thing or two, and have
> emboldened them to dig deep into the underground vaults to blow the
> cobwebs and dust off the other metro schemes.
> NOt to mention the technological improvements which have accrued in
the
> meantime which make the IR techno pundits confident enough to
undertake
> another such odyssey in another megapolis.THis time, in the showpiece
of
> India to the rest of the world.
> Bravo IR. We are proud of you, and are proud of our irfca fraternity!
> Best regards.
> Shankar
>
> Jayant S wrote:
> >
> > <A HREF="http://www.delhimetrorail.com/">http://www.delhimetrorail.com/</A>
> > This is the DMRC website. I've just begun
> > going through it.
> >
> > This website says, though, that the proposed
> > track gauge is 1676 mm. Think they've
> > got it straight after all ?
> >
> > -Jayant S-

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: MLRs locos diverted to DHR

Date: 12 May 1999 00:54:57 -0500


Gang !

There is an article in the Indian Express today which says
that the Matheran Light Railways has had 40 (!) derailments in
the last two months. This means that whenever the train is
delayed or cancelled, the taxi operators make hay. The article
also alleges that many of the taxis are owned by the loco shed
staff themselves, so they have a vested interest in keeping
the trains from running. However after an enquiery, it was
found that there were no taxis tracable to any of the shed
staff, as the vehicles may have been registered to their
wive's or relative's names. The activist organisation in
Matheran is asking for 5 passenger services and one freight
services per day. Everything in Matheran is brought from the
ground up, so a good transport system would ensure regular
supplies at reasonable prices.
The article says that the 6 new locos (NDM 6 ?) meant for the
MLR have been diverted to the DHR so the MLR is still stuck
with the ageing NDM 1s.
BTW there is a song by a sort of pop singer Nitin Bali ( seen
on the V TV or Indian MTV) which pretends to show some station
on the MLR (Jumma patti or Water pipe, I do not think this is
Matheran platform) as some laid back station in wartime
Britain. There is a lady waiting for her husband (?) to arrive
but he doesn't, until much later etc.
The point of the strory is the fleeting glimpse of the
mountain climbing NDM 1 loco, whose black and sooty exhaust
would do justice to any Alco loco at startup. Except that this
loco is at the end of its uphill journey and is pulling into
the station. This surprised me as the NDM 1 now has two
Cummins NTA 855 prime movers which are reasonably clean and
the extensive service network of the company ensures that the
engines stay in good shape. But the black exhaust is pointing
to an incompetent maintenance of an otherwise good engine (to
make a distinction from the Alco 251 series which at the very
best service would give some smoke). So is the staff really
bungling the matters in Neral ?
Or are any of the NDM 1s still with the original engines
(which were ?) so the smoky exhaust can be justified. Next
time around I will make it a point to spot the raised
'parasol' of sheet metal which covers the larger Cummins
engine and its silencer.
If music video makers would include shots of trains atleast
Apurva would watch religiously, however bad the song...

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Specials freights and oddities on IR.

Date: 12 May 1999 01:07:17 -0500




Vdate@aol.email wrote:

> Has anybody seen a motor car in a motor and parcel van? I have not,
although
> I have seen other vehicles, mostly bicycles, motor cycles and
scooters. Why
> is called a motor and parcel van? Did it ever have it own motive
power or
> did it have generators of some sort in olden days?

The motor and parcel van is not self propelled. It is an ordinary
passenger
wagons without any windows or doors except large doors where the
vestibule is
situated. These doors and also provided a small plate which can be
folded out and
thus a car can be driven into the carriage. I have seen a picture of a
large
numbers of Ambassador cars being loaded into such a rake at Shalimar
Calcutta in
some Indian Railway magazine. So a number of 'motor vans' must also
interconnect
to allow loading and unloading of a number of vehicles at the same time.
You
would see a picture of 'Motor & Parcel van' soon at my website. Please
let me
know if anyone would like to have a picture of this oddity (?) by email
immediately.

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Egmore = Erhhumbur

Date: 12 May 1999 01:13:50 -0500


> It need to be transliterated as Elumbur or Ezhumbur, Rather, while the
> locals still refer to it as Erhhumbur, better sense prevails, and most
> others call it Egmore.

In that case it sound similar to Perambur where the ICF is situated, any
guesses
what Perambur would be called in Queen's english ? But that is not,
makes matters
easy.

I have noticed that all the stations near Chennai have had the names
deleted by
black paint in Hindi and sometimes in English too bu pro Tamil
activists. Makes it
quite trying to guess which station that may be.

From: Sunil Bajpai <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 12 May 1999 02:11:23 -0500


The WG at Bhusaval is outside the Railway Station and not in the loco
shed,
isn't it?

On the neighbouring Western Railway, it was probably in May 93 that all
BG
steam sheds were ordered closed. Till that time three passenger trains
on
the Tapti-valley section (Surat-Bhusaval route) were run on steam
locomotives based at Udhana, while the goods traffic on the same section
was
on diesels!

The Udhana shed didn't want to let go of the steam era all of a sudden
and
it was interpreted that the orders were to introduce the diesel link
from
May 1! That meant four more days of grace for steam locomotives.

The last locomotive that left UDN was footplated by Driving Instructor
(diesel) from Bulsar who had started his career as a fireman on the very
engine that was to be the last on WR. The Loco Foreman himself and many
others accompanied the engine on its last journey and it was a tearful
time
for them!

When the loco arrived back three days later, the Foreman sent a telegram
to
the Divisional HQ stating that the locomotive made it journey without
losing
time or any other unusual and that the fire was dropped at such and such
time upon its return to UDN.

I wonder if you have met any of the old time steam loco shed foremen.
Tough
and powerful guys, most of them. It was a little strange to see them so
emotional.

Sunil

-----Original Message-----
From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
To: Harsh Vardhan <hvc@vsnl.email
Cc: sank@telco.email <sank@telco.email irfca@cs.email
<irfca@cs.email
Date: 11 May 1999 15:10
Subject: Re: WP and WG locos


>> Yes, a few of them have survived indeed. Although the only one to
reach a
>> display pedestal so far is WG 10253 at former steam loco shed,
Bhusaval.
>> Quite deservedly
>> as BSL was the largest steam loco shed in the country holding over
150
locos
>> consisting of over 100 WGs.
>>
>> Bhusaval also boasts of a WP 7000, a B/1 766 and B/1 768.
>
>Does that mean 3 WPs (or variants) and a WG 10253 at Bhusawal ?In that
case
BSL
>is the only place in India with more than one BG plinthed loco apart
from
the
>NRM.How many other BG locos are plinthed in India leaving the NRM and
the
Nehru
>Science centre in Mumbai ? I cannot think of any !
>
>Apurva
>
>
>
>
>

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 12 May 1999 02:40:38 -0500


> The WDS 1 is the ex US army 44
> tonne shunters ? I saw a long line of these locos with Caterpillar
engines for
> scrapping at the Bandra Marshaling yard atleast 8 years ago.
>

Appu, I remember seeing them in 1979 at Bhakra Dam with a short
passenger
train.

Viraf

From: Sunil Bajpai <>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Why does IR have a ladies coach was: Fire in EMU]

Date: 12 May 1999 02:43:10 -0500


Yeah, of course. I keep forgetting that this list works differently from
some others where I have membership.

Must remember that the reply address here is NOT the list address.

Thanks,

Sunil


-----Original Message-----
From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@vsnl.email
To: IRFCA <irfca@cs.email
Cc: Sunil Bajpai <sunil@lw1.email
Date: 12 May 1999 13:46
Subject: [Fwd: Why does IR have a ladies coach was: Fire in EMU]


>Thanks to Sunil for his inputs. For such subjects it is better
>if you send this mail only to the IRFCA even if it is
>addressed to me as I would read it there in any case. This
>will enable our enlightened panel to contribute and debate on
>such interesting subjects.
>
>Apurva
>

From: C.L.Zeni <>

Subject: Re: Train to Europe!!

Date: 12 May 1999 05:00:01 -0500


VIRAF P.. MULLA wrote:
>
> >
> > Interestingly, the Talgo sets are also in operation here in the US
> > Northwest, running between Portland and Vancouver, BC. I'm going to
have to
> > check them out sometime soon!
> >
> Is there a change in gauge? My sister lives in Vancouver and is of no
help
> in railway matters.

No change in gauge anywhere in the US/Canada now - there are no common
carriers left on anything but 4'8.5" (1435 mm). The only thing that
affects full interchange/routing of cars between railroads is height
restrictions, most of them in the Northeast.

There are of course some tourist railroads on narrow gauges on formerly
common carrier routes though.
--
Craig Zeni - REPLY TO -->> clzeni at mindspring dot com
<A HREF="http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html">http://www.mindspring.com/~clzeni/index.html</A>
Kitty Haiku: Grace personified.
I leap into the window.
I meant to do that.

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: WP and WG locos

Date: 12 May 1999 05:34:40 -0500



>The WG at Bhusaval is outside the Railway Station and not in the loco
shed,
>isn't it?
>


No, the WP 7000 is at the Rly. Station but WG 10253 is at the Loco Shed
outside the loco foremen's office. The WP though is at quite a vantage
point
even for those passing BSL on a train and is very well visible when
there
are no trains in the way. It is quite well maintained and lovingly kept
by
the station staff. Bravo.

>On the neighbouring Western Railway, it was probably in May 93 that all
BG
>steam sheds were ordered closed. Till that time three passenger trains
on
>the Tapti-valley section (Surat-Bhusaval route) were run on steam
>locomotives based at Udhana, while the goods traffic on the same
section
was
>on diesels!
>

Yes I have travelled behing a battered WG in Aug '91 on this route.

>I wonder if you have met any of the old time steam loco shed foremen.
Tough
>and powerful guys, most of them. It was a little strange to see them so
>emotional.

Yes, that's a deadly combination, isn't it. I must say that it required
a
hell of a leadership effort to motivate the huge staff. Leading from the
front as one would say.

By the way while on the subject, there are numerous stories and versions
about why steam finished so quickly on IR. The latest one was that after
emergency experience, Indira Gandhi ordered them to be packed off as it
was
felt that the tough working conditions of steam era propagated trade
unionism.

Can we have your unofficial comment on this untimely demise of steam?

Harsh

From: Harsh Vardhan <>

Subject: Re: Why does IR have a ladies coach was: Fire in EMU

Date: 12 May 1999 05:59:28 -0500



>There would, perhaps, be no clear yardstick by which to judge the
>reasonableness or the need to extend such facilities. Any suggestions
or
>comments?
>


One unique thing which I have noticed(although admittedly I have not
been to
the Railway booking office in Bombay since May '92) is that although the
trains in Bombay have ladies coaches but at the reservation counters
they
have to stand in a common queue which is not so from other parts of the
country. Even on WR I have seen that some real wayside stations like
Bilkha,
Waghai, Ajnod, Lunidhar etc. have instructions for separate queues
painted
on the booking counters. It is a different matter that it might be just
a
few days in a year that it needs to be practised because of the light
patronage.

Railway also has funny rules for concessions for physically handicapped.
There is actually a chart which states that what percentage of
handicap(or
vision defect) is entitled for what concession and the paperwork
requirement
for it(of course).

I think we can very easily start a line for idiosyncrasies on IR. That
Iam
sure will be truly unique in the world. Shankar, Dr. Walker ?

Harsh

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Re: Specials freights and oddities on IR.

Date: 12 May 1999 07:04:14 -0500


>Vijay Balasubramanian wrote:
>
>> >Auto Train is typically 20-23 Superliners and as many auto racks,
which
>> >are both bi level and tri level. It makes for an extremely
impressive
>> >train going by at 80 mph...very big, very long and quite fast.
>>
>> The last time I traveled on it during Summer of 94, it had a total of
45
>> cars - 22 coaches and 23 auto carriers, hauled by two Genesis locos.
Max.
>> speed - 75 kmph.
>
>That 75kph can't be right. The Auto Train covers 861 miles in about
16.5
>hours which gives it an average speed of around 52mph, i.e. ~83kph, an
>average that would be impossible to achieve if the max speed was 75kph.
>I suspect the max speed is 79mph (~125kph), which is the FRA mandated
>max speed on lines that do not have any automatic train control
>mechanism installed. In effect in terms of speed the Auto Train ranks
>right up there with the Rajdhanis.
>
>My mistake!! I meant 75 mph. Atleast, that's what one of the
attendants
>told me.
>
>Vijay

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re: Train to Europe!!

Date: 12 May 1999 07:55:18 -0500


S Pai wrote:
>
> I'll inject a note of pessimism here...
>
> > If the Singapore-Europe freight rail link is primarily for freight,
> > which seems likely, it would be a good idea even without a
> > continuous single-gauge link. The idea would be to maximize the
> > amount of travel done by rail. It would be a lot more efficient and
> > economical to send goods 90% by rail, with inter-gauge transfers and
> > maybe even roads bridging gaps, than it would be by other means.
>
> *If* the transshipment is really efficient. In India, one of the
> motivations for Project Unigauge was the enormous delays and problems
> experienced at goods transshipment points when switching between MG
> and BG.

I should point out that in the railbridge across the US the payload is
all containerized thus making transhipments a breeze

> Many manufacturers would rather send their goods by road
> carriers than suffer through IR's gauge transfers. I'm not sure that
> the other railways in the region are much better than IR in this
> respect, and multiple gauge changes will really hurt the throughput.
> In contrast, you'll have the competition (east Asian shipping
> companies) touting their established competence and reliability. And
> it's not just gauge transfers -- manufacturers often complain about
> cargo being simply "lost" or untraceable somewhere in IR's huge system
> or delayed indefinitely, and that's a big part of why road freight is
> so popular *despite* the enormous problems with road traffic
> infrastructure in India.

There are well know techniques for dealing with these problems. Whether
IR will rise up to use these well known techniques is another matter.

The railbridge cargo is carried across the US in unit trains of double
stack container trains, so unless someone tries very hard, it is
difficult to just lose one container or one container carrier on the
way.

> So there'd be a credibility problem to
> overcome in the first place, which would make raising money for the
> project harder (or more expensive).

Yup.

> I agree with the basic idea that the land rail route can be more
> efficient, but the problems will be in the implementation and
> demonstration of service. I think the management obstacles (multiple
> jurisdictions and non-friendly neighbours) will also be a killer.
> As they say, the devil is in the details.

The only way that this can be made to work is for the host railroads to
allow the well established shippers to run their own container trains
for a fee. In effect that is what happens in the railbridge operations.
Companies like Maersk or American President Lines or Hanjin contracts
with the railroads to haul their container trains (sometimes just blocks
of containers) across the country and negotiates a mutually acceptable
fee schedule to effect compensation for the service.

Cheers,

Jishnu.

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