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From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: WCAM model

Date: 09 Mar 1999 10:11:39 -0500


Not to cloud the issue, but WAM2 is also a possibility for that
locomotive.
It looks a little more like the loco you have than the WAM1 does - the
electrical equipment and truck are more similar, and the windshield area
is
sloped back rather than flat as on the WAM1. Although the WAM1 is
admittedly
more of a "character" loco. :)

I've got a couple of pictures of a rusty WAM1 on my new Asansol shed
page,
but the truck is obscured. I've also got pictures of WAM2s from the
shed,
including one with a fairly close-up shot of the truck (I was standing
two
tracks away). I haven't scanned that one yet. I can also send you copies
of
the original prints if the scans lack sufficient detail or clarity.

Shanku

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: WAM1 model

Date: 09 Mar 1999 10:33:23 -0500


So, does anybody out there have shots of a WAM1 sideframe?

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model

Date: 09 Mar 1999 10:43:04 -0500


Courtesy of Shanku's pictures at Asansol,
It looks like the WAM1 is outside equalizer.
On my model the equalizers are invisible. I don't think I
can turn it into a WAM1. Hunt for a prototype continues.

Annie

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model

Date: 09 Mar 1999 10:43:04 -0500


Courtesy of Shanku's pictures at Asansol,
It looks like the WAM1 is outside equalizer.
On my model the equalizers are invisible. I don't think I
can turn it into a WAM1. Hunt for a prototype continues.

Annie

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model, and other details

Date: 09 Mar 1999 17:53:27 -0500


Annie, I have uploaded a detailed photo of the WAM2 (No. 20307) at
<A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg</A>

You may want to check it out, to see if it's a possible candidate for
your
loco. I also have a front view of it, as well as a far more attractive
blue
and black livery if you don't like the dark green.

This brings up a point - the photographs I have are capable of showing
more
detail than the images I am putting on the net - if anyone would like a
detailed section of any of these photographs, please email me directly.
I
have the full resolution scans on my hard disk, so it's not a big
problem to
do this.

By the way, Apurva, my Asansol shed page now has a URL to a separate
images
page, for non-Javascript browsers.

Shanku

-----Original Message-----
From: Anne Ogborn [mailto:anniepoo@netmagic.email
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 10:43 AM
To: Apurva Bahadur
Cc: Shanku Niyogi; 'irfca@cs.email
Subject: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model


Courtesy of Shanku's pictures at Asansol,
It looks like the WAM1 is outside equalizer.
On my model the equalizers are invisible. I don't think I
can turn it into a WAM1. Hunt for a prototype continues.

Annie

From: Shanku Niyogi <>

Subject: Re: Report, pictures from Asansol shed

Date: 09 Mar 1999 19:07:11 -0500


Let's just say, being able to take pictures at Asansol shed required
some
creative thinking on the part of my brother-in-law. :) It's quite a
funny
story actually - looking back, the thing I wonder most is how we kept
from
laughing!

I'm sad to say that the sheds at ASN have absolutely no steam locos left
of
any kind. The steam shed is still up, but it is completely empty. The
employees I spoke to, as well as the ER senior public relations officer,
also confirmed this.

A non-Javascript version of the images links is now available at
<A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images_all.html">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images_all.html</A>
This page also has links to some "blown-up" sections of the same photos.

Shanku

-----Original Message-----
From: Apurva Bahadur [mailto:iti@vsnl.email
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:48 AM
To: Shanku Niyogi
Cc: 'irfca@cs.email
Subject: Re: Report, pictures from Asansol shed


Hi Shanku,

Great page, waiting for the full report. Did you have a permit to take
pictures
at the shed ? What is the status of any WG or HPS locos in the steam
sheds
of
ASN ? Did you see any BG steam locos at all ?
I had some trouble with the Java stuff on your webpage, plain thumbnails
would
be appreciated if possible.

Apurva

Shanku Niyogi wrote:

> I have uploaded a report and the first batch of pictures from Asansol
shed.
> I have only been able to scan very few pictures so far - you will
notice
> some blanks in the picture gallery.
>
> The URL is
> <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/asansol.html">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/asansol.html</A>
>
> Note that the larger size pictures are in the form of a pop-up image
> gallery, and require a Javascript-enabled browser. If you have trouble
> viewing them, please let me know, and I will post image URLs on a
separate
> page.
>
> Also to come (as soon as I have time) are reports and pictures from:
>
> - Howrah-Kulti on the Black Diamond Express
> - Asansol station
> - Howrah-New Delhi on the Patna Rajdhani Express
> - New Delhi station
> - New Delhi-Howrah on the Poorva Express
>
> Enjoy,
> Shanku

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: WAM2 Model

Date: 09 Mar 1999 19:17:32 -0500


Shanku Niyogi wrote:

> Annie, I have uploaded a detailed photo of the WAM2 (No. 20307) at
> <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg</A>
Just checking out DB181 pics at:
<A HREF="http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/electric/181/pix.html">http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/electric/181/pix.html</A>
WAM2 is closer. There is an outside equaliser, but it is concealed
by the secondary suspension. One difference I see is that
the DB181 has proportionately lower side skirting. The cabs
themselves are similar, with door arrangements etc.

Funny to see the buffers missing on the picture by Shanku.
Must've been assigned to freight duty ?

--
JS
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: WAM 1/ WAG 1 bogie

Date: 09 Mar 1999 23:42:19 -0500


Gang !

So the BOBO locos WAM 1 & WAG 1 have a monomotor bogie ?
Although I have not seen one from inside, a very reliable
source told me that the motor is in the carbody and one motor
drove both the axles of the bogie. Thus maintenance of the
motor was done within the loco itself. This system of mounting
the motor was not very popular and it was maintenance
intensive (due to the higher shock levels on the Indian track
?). So when the Indian designed WAM 4 (CoCo) was finalised the
bogie for that loco was the same as the WDM 2. Pity Annie did
not pick up a CoCo model at the auction.

Apurva

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model, and other details

Date: 09 Mar 1999 23:58:03 -0500


Shanku Niyogi wrote:
>
> Annie, I have uploaded a detailed photo of the WAM2 (No. 20307) at
> <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg</A>
>
> You may want to check it out, to see if it's a possible candidate for
your
> loco. I also have a front view of it, as well as a far more attractive
blue
> and black livery if you don't like the dark green.
>
> This brings up a point - the photographs I have are capable of showing
more
> detail than the images I am putting on the net - if anyone would like
a
> detailed section of any of these photographs, please email me
directly. I
> have the full resolution scans on my hard disk, so it's not a big
problem to
> do this.

Thanks - The WAM2 is a distinct possibility. I could remove some of the
detail on
the 181 sideframes (which I hate to do, the detail is spectacular),
create the large
bearing covers somehow (maybe use S or O scale
freight roller bearing covers) and build the central spring assembly.

The body looks straightforward - create a form from a hardwood or lucite
block, vacuum form
the final body over it. Although the existing body's not far off. Only
need to change the
side louvers.

Does anyone know how long a WAM2 is?


On other fronts, the WDM2 has come to the top of the modelling pile.
I'll be resolving the
great "what scale" question and starting work this week.
I'm leaning towards 1:87 scale and using an odd track gage.

Question: When equipment originally designed for european 4-8 1/2" gage
is adapted to
Indian 5-6, do they redesign the bodies and frames, or just widen the
gage, axles, and
bolsters?

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Shanku's pics - WAM1 model, and other details

Date: 09 Mar 1999 23:58:03 -0500


Shanku Niyogi wrote:
>
> Annie, I have uploaded a detailed photo of the WAM2 (No. 20307) at
> <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg</A>
>
> You may want to check it out, to see if it's a possible candidate for
your
> loco. I also have a front view of it, as well as a far more attractive
blue
> and black livery if you don't like the dark green.
>
> This brings up a point - the photographs I have are capable of showing
more
> detail than the images I am putting on the net - if anyone would like
a
> detailed section of any of these photographs, please email me
directly. I
> have the full resolution scans on my hard disk, so it's not a big
problem to
> do this.

Thanks - The WAM2 is a distinct possibility. I could remove some of the
detail on
the 181 sideframes (which I hate to do, the detail is spectacular),
create the large
bearing covers somehow (maybe use S or O scale
freight roller bearing covers) and build the central spring assembly.

The body looks straightforward - create a form from a hardwood or lucite
block, vacuum form
the final body over it. Although the existing body's not far off. Only
need to change the
side louvers.

Does anyone know how long a WAM2 is?


On other fronts, the WDM2 has come to the top of the modelling pile.
I'll be resolving the
great "what scale" question and starting work this week.
I'm leaning towards 1:87 scale and using an odd track gage.

Question: When equipment originally designed for european 4-8 1/2" gage
is adapted to
Indian 5-6, do they redesign the bodies and frames, or just widen the
gage, axles, and
bolsters?

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: WAM2 Model

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:15:36 -0500


Jayant S wrote:
>
> Shanku Niyogi wrote:
>
> > Annie, I have uploaded a detailed photo of the WAM2 (No. 20307) at
> > <A HREF="http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg">http://threshold.simplenet.com/india99/images/WAM2.jpg</A>
> Just checking out DB181 pics at:
> <A HREF="http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/electric/181/pix.html">http://mercurio.iet.unipi.it/pix/de/electric/181/pix.html</A>
> WAM2 is closer. There is an outside equaliser, but it is concealed
> by the secondary suspension. One difference I see is that
> the DB181 has proportionately lower side skirting. The cabs
> themselves are similar, with door arrangements etc.
>
Thanks for the info.
Yes, I think with the WAM2 we've found a prototype. I take it the
WAM2 has the "pointy" nose like the 181, not a flat "shovel" nose?
(that is, the two halves of the windscreen don't lie in the same plane).

The 181 has outside caliper brakes, the WAM2 inside caliper brakes.
placement of details is different - this is no big deal. I may have
a bit of trouble locating appropriate insulators - the WAM2 has
fat ones and thin ones.

Changing the skirting is straightforward, or should be - I need to look
at the model, and it's two floors down in the studio to see if the
mechanism
allows the change. Changing the sides means fitting a long joint so
it's invisible,
so that will be most of the work on the model. I can probably make the
protective
grille without photoetching, which makes me happy.
And, best of all - the roof arrangements are just about the same - I
don't have to
move the roofwalks.
I take it there's one pan, in the back? The 181 is dual voltage, and
has two pans.
(which look different, incidentally).

Are WAM1 units still in service?

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Re: WAM 1/ WAG 1

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:34:10 -0500


Apurva wrote:
> So the BOBO locos WAM 1 & WAG 1 have a monomotor bogie ?
> ....... This system of mounting
> the motor was not very popular and it was maintenance
> intensive (due to the higher shock levels on the Indian track ?)
Yes, this is true. They were based on European practice.
> bogie for that loco was the same as the WDM 2.
Masterstroke of engineering economy, that, on the part
of IR. Nearest model bogie would be, as Annie mentioned
some time ago, those from a F-M Trainmaster or an Alco
PA diesel. Wonder if it is worth modifying her DB181
to accept these, even if technically possible....
>Does the side buffer really make such a difference in the ride of a
>passenger train ?
Without side buffers, that WAM2 would not be able to
couple directly to IR passenger stock, on which
link-and-buffer couplings are standard. The buffers
are an essential part of the system, as they maintain
separation and also absorb a lot of longitudinal shock
while keeping the link taut (Most diesel and electric
power on IR has knuckle couplers with buffers as well).

--
Jayant S
--

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: WAM 1/ WAG 1 bogie

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:35:55 -0500


Apurva Bahadur wrote:
>
> Gang !
>
> So the BOBO locos WAM 1 & WAG 1 have a monomotor bogie ?
> Although I have not seen one from inside, a very reliable
> source told me that the motor is in the carbody and one motor
> drove both the axles of the bogie. Thus maintenance of the
> motor was done within the loco itself. This system of mounting
> the motor was not very popular and it was maintenance
> intensive (due to the higher shock levels on the Indian track
> ?). So when the Indian designed WAM 4 (CoCo) was finalised the
> bogie for that loco was the same as the WDM 2. Pity Annie did
> not pick up a CoCo model at the auction.
>
> Apurva


VERY interesting. Since I have to make WDM2 sideframes for the
WDM2 project, maybe we can figure out a way to have TWO models
of IR locos available. Hmm...

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Change of Gauge

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:36:37 -0500


Annie wrote:
> Question: When equipment originally designed for european 4-8 1/2"
gage is adapted to
> Indian 5-6, do they redesign the bodies and frames, or just widen the
gage, axles, and
> bolsters?
At least in the case of the DL500 Alcos, I think it
was just a change of trucks. Probably the same with
the DL 560, or the YDM4 equivalents used in South
America on the 3'6" gauge. Of course, some modifications
may have taken place on the coupling/buffer locations
too. One of the BESA steam types was closely based on
a contemporary British loco, though advantage was taken
of the wider track gauge to provide a wider firebox.
I don't know, though, how many locos in the Subcontinent
were direct derivatives of power from other gauges.

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: WAM2 Model

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:44:59 -0500


> Funny to see the buffers missing on the picture by Shanku.
> Must've been assigned to freight duty ?

With reference to Shanku's text on his site.What indeed is a shunting
test ? It is a test of tractive effort of a recently overhauled loco ?
Does the side buffer really make such a difference in the ride of a
passenger train ?

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: WAM2 Model

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:44:59 -0500


> Funny to see the buffers missing on the picture by Shanku.
> Must've been assigned to freight duty ?

With reference to Shanku's text on his site.What indeed is a shunting
test ? It is a test of tractive effort of a recently overhauled loco ?
Does the side buffer really make such a difference in the ride of a
passenger train ?

Apurva

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: WAM 1/ WAG 1

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:50:22 -0500


> > bogie for that loco was the same as the WDM 2.
> Masterstroke of engineering economy, that, on the part
> of IR. Nearest model bogie would be, as Annie mentioned
> some time ago, those from a F-M Trainmaster or an Alco
> PA diesel. Wonder if it is worth modifying her DB181
> to accept these, even if technically possible....
> >Does the side buffer really make such a difference in the ride of a
> >passenger train ?

I'm a bit confused now. You're saying WAM2 and WDM2 have the
same truck? But the WDM2 has outside equalizers, and the WAM2
pic Shanku just posted a link to doesn't!

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: WAM 2 Bogie

Date: 10 Mar 1999 00:51:41 -0500


> I'm a bit confused now. You're saying WAM2 and WDM2 have the
> same truck? But the WDM2 has outside equalizers, and the WAM2
> pic Shanku just posted a link to doesn't!

No ! WDM2 (and WAM4) share the same 3-axle truck.
WAM2 has 2-axle trucks: closest to your DB181. Shanku's
picture shows an outside equaliser, concealed by secondary
suspension springs. Apurva and I were talking about the
WDM2 as earlier there was a discussion on the modelling
of a WDM2, to which you recommended modifying a
FM Trainmaster. Sorry for the slight confusion
and crosstalk !

Besides, I do see that a WDM2 is on your agenda too ? :)
Alco PA wheelsets may be the closest for this !
itr
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: Jayant S <>

Subject: Query for Annie: WAM2 model

Date: 10 Mar 1999 01:00:31 -0500


Apurva Bahadur wrote:

Apurva wrote:
> > ...(Most diesel and electric
> > power on IR has knuckle couplers with buffers as well).
> I never thought of that ! Thanks
Which reminds me: Annie; after you settle the
question of gauge in 1:87 HO scale, what stock are
you planning to run ? Also, what couplers does your
Roco DB181 have ? A set of Kadee knuckles while
retaining the side buffers would be prototypical.
IR motive power offers the fairly unique sight
of central knuckles with side buffers.

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(20)702534 : FAX 91(20)773191
--

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: WAM 2 Bogie

Date: 10 Mar 1999 01:04:38 -0500


Jayant S wrote:
>
> > I'm a bit confused now. You're saying WAM2 and WDM2 have the
> > same truck? But the WDM2 has outside equalizers, and the WAM2
> > pic Shanku just posted a link to doesn't!
>
> No ! WDM2 (and WAM4) share the same 3-axle truck.

Duh - sorry folks - it's 1 am here, I'm getting foggy.

> WAM2 has 2-axle trucks: closest to your DB181. Shanku's
> picture shows an outside equaliser, concealed by secondary
> suspension springs. Apurva and I were talking about the
> WDM2 as earlier there was a discussion on the modelling
> of a WDM2, to which you recommended modifying a
> FM Trainmaster. Sorry for the slight confusion
> and crosstalk !

Now that I understand -
I'm thinking that if I can find a commercially made sideframe
here in the states that will fit an available mechanism, and
a WAM4 and a WDM2 both fit it, I can make resin kits to make
either loco without a lot of extra effort.

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