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From: Iain A Fraser <>

Subject: Re: Video programs and tapes

Date: 02 Sep 1998 11:29:24 -0500


Hi folks....

A couple of people on list asked me to look out video tapes for them...I
seem to have screwed up my filing system on this machine and cant trace
the original posts. I have just received a catalog of over 4000 tapes
and a lot of IR stuff in there so we can make progress. Please get back
in touch

Cheers

Iain
Aerolite Booktraders
Rail Book Specialist

From: Vdate <>

Subject: Re: State of affairs at I.R

Date: 02 Sep 1998 18:51:02 -0500


The MPs on the railway related committees, members of the railway board
and
members of the national museum might be three of several group who could
be
kept informed. If somebody could cull the gist of e.mail traffic at
irfca (is
it legal)? And share that by snail mail with the above three groups
(and
others I am not familiar with), ...it might be a start. I am willing to
do my
share.

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Frontier Mail

Date: 02 Sep 1998 18:59:03 -0500


> > I do not know how many of those old timer drivers whom I knew
> > are in service now. Possibly only Kali Charan and Hari Yadav as DI.
> > Most of the others, either retired before or soon after my last
visit
> > in 93. Uday Singh Rana, a chargeman at Bulsar (and a former loco
driver)
> > may have retired now. Can you please find out?


I will but give me some time.

I can see true Mumbaikar Viraf getting very uncomfortable at being
confronted with the harsh truth !

Appu you are wrong here. I have started hating Mumbai and infact after
retirement might shift out of Mumbai probably to palghar where I have a
nice weekend flat facing the railway line.

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Frontier Mail

Date: 02 Sep 1998 19:18:30 -0500



> Where is the Dara Pass located? Between Shamgarh and Kota? I too
have
> a snap of the Frontier Mail negotiating this pass in my photocopied IR

> magazine collection. I have seen many a snap of the Rajdhani Exp. on
> this pass.


Dara Pass is between Shamgarh and Kota Jn.(major stations) It is exactly
after Dara which is 872Kms from Bombay. The Frontier Mail passes through
the pass at about 10.30 am. If you are in the last coach then you'll be
rewarded with a great thrill of seeing your locomotive right in front of
you. It used to be a great sight during the Steam days. But now with the
afforestation programme in full swing this great view is partially block
by the trees.

This is one of the reasons why I prefer to travel by "THE FRONTIER"
rather
than by the Rajdhani.

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: How favourite is the Frontier Mail ?

Date: 02 Sep 1998 19:22:59 -0500



> In the 80s, nearly 6-7 coaches would get detached from the Frontier
Mail
> at Delhi and become a part of the Jammu Tawi Mail; this provided
through
> service between Bombay and Jammu Tawi. This service has been
withdrawn.

THE FRONTIER also used to carry 2 coaches for Kalka which were attached
to
the Kalka Mail at Old Delhi.

Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: How favourite is the Frontier Mail ?

Date: 02 Sep 1998 20:05:40 -0500


On Wed, 2 Sep 1998, Apurva Bahadur wrote:

> Seems to me that the Frontier / Golden Temple Mail seems to be more of
> the Mumbai gang's favourite rather than the MCT - NSDL Rajdhani or the
> AK Rajdhani. Why is that ? Is the Frontier Mail diesel hauled
> (preferably double headed ?). Is the Frontier mail the longest regular
> running train in India, at least in the Western part of India ? Which
> other trains come to your notice as more than 50 years old ?
>
> Apurva
>
>

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

THE DECCAN QUEEN ON THE BOM- POONA ROUTE AND THE FLYING RANEE BOM-
SURAT.
THE DECCAN WAS FLAGGED OFF 1ST ON JUNE 23 1930.

From: Donald L. Mills, Jr <>

Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.

Date: 02 Sep 1998 20:54:41 -0500


I like privitazation as well, just make sure you keep your passenger
service in tack once these new rail owners come on line. Don in WV

----------
> From: Dheeraj Sanghi <dheeraj@cseultra1.email
> To: irfca@cs.email vijay_642@hotmail.email
> Cc: dheeraj@iitk.email
> Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.
> Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 2:20 PM
>
> > I strongly feel that privatization is the answer.
> >
> > Why not have private parties run our trains by leasing the
> > infrastructure from IR but providing their own personnel?
> > What are the pros and cons of such a move?
>
> If IR is interested in privatization, there are lots of things
> it can do before allowing private operators of trains. It can
> privatize production units, give out contracts for cleaning staff,
> maintenance, and a whole lot of things. There used to be some
> talks of this nature during the Congress regime. But the UF
> government went the other way and hired a lot of staff (so-called
> casual labourers were regularized).
>
> Maybe IR will start seeking help of private sector in near future,
> but I don't foresee them letting private guys run trains (except
> for luxury trains). And private guys won't be willing to run
> trains either, given that IR would not be willing to give any
> performance guarantees. We can take a look at the fate of private
> power projects. They wanted a tri-partite agreement between
> Coal India Ltd, Railways and the power company themselves for
> timely delivery of fuel (that is coal) to the power house. Both
> CIL and IR refused initially. When they did agree to pay the
> penalty for non-delivery of fuel, they asked for a very hefty
> hike in the freight rates over the normal rates. any private
> operator would like to IR to guarantee that the train won't be
> delayed due to IR problems, and this IR would never do.
>
> So forget about privae trains. And I am not much excited with
> the thought of private trains either. If IR can shed its
> huge "excess" workforce, and contract out non-core services
> (like cleaning, catering, etc.), things will be much better.
>
> -dheeraj
> --------------
> Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638
(Off)
> Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627
(Res)
> Indian Institute of Technology (0512)
59-0725/0413 (Fax)
> Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: State of affairs at I.R

Date: 02 Sep 1998 21:08:13 -0500




Vdate@aol.email wrote:

> The MPs on the railway related committees, members of the railway
board and
> members of the national museum might be three of several group who
could be
> kept informed. If somebody could cull the gist of e.mail traffic at
irfca (is
> it legal)? And share that by snail mail with the above three groups
(and
> others I am not familiar with), ...it might be a start. I am willing
to do my
> share.

It's certainly legal.

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: State of affairs at I.R

Date: 02 Sep 1998 21:10:24 -0500




Vdate@aol.email wrote:

> The MPs on the railway related committees, members of the railway
board and
> members of the national museum might be three of several group who
could be
> kept informed. If somebody could cull the gist of e.mail traffic at
irfca (is
> it legal)? And share that by snail mail with the above three groups
(and
> others I am not familiar with), ...it might be a start. I am willing
to do my
> share.

It's certainly legal under US law and Indian copyright law, which
descend from a
common
ancestor - common law.
I can't imagine what else would affect it.

From: Prakash Tendulkar <>

Subject: Re: Crew change/watering stations

Date: 02 Sep 1998 21:37:36 -0500


Vijay,

> What kind of a station qualifies for a crew change? Does it
> need to have proper accommodation for the crew? Or should
> it have enough traffic so that the crew can take over a new
> train soon? Or is it something else?

Crew change can occur when one of the following conditions exists:

1) It is a station near loco shed with sufficient railway qtrs.
2) Change of division
3) Accommodation is available for transient crew

On WR, most of the trains change crew at Valsad, one at Surat and
the rest at Vadodara. Valsad at 199 kms, is almost half the way on
MCT to Vadodara run. Division changes at Surat so Valsad and Vadodara
drivers share half the traffic where crew is changed at Valsad.
Valsad driver share half the trains on MCT - Valsad runs, too. Same
holds true for Vadodara drivers who share half the trains on Ahemadabad
Vadodara runs.

On the other hand, Rajdhani, Jammu-Tawi and Deluxe/Paschim Express
are hauled exclusively by MCT drivers to Vadodara. Flying Rani is
hauled by MCT drivers only.

General rule of thumb would be, most of the older trains that were
established during steam days, change the crew at big loco shed stations
because in steam days, crew and the loco were changed together. Today,
locos may not be changed when crew changes, a notable exception is
WCAMx from WR due to their limited availability.

Another thing to consider is that loco drivers (and motormen) do not
work more than 6 hours in one set. Most sets are 4 to 4.5 hrs in
duration.
That allows them to work "doubles" during peak season without creating
too
much fatigue. Most of the long distance trains on WR (starting or
ending
MCT) run at night and it is too hazardous to work all the nights in a
row
for months and months for long hours.

Some sets, even though they are separate, work on the same day, giving
driver one day off, a luxury for a person who otherwise works every day.
For example, MCT driver hauls Down Delhi Janata Express in the morning
from MCT to Valsad (finishing one set) and hauls another Delhi Janata
in the afternoon to MCT (finishing second set). Same with Valsad Express
hauled by Valsad drivers.

Prakash

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Final list of the timetable seekers

Date: 03 Sep 1998 03:50:44 -0500


Hi Gang,

This is the final list of the time tables with the correct quantity as
well as snail adds.

Apurva

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Attn: Pune Mumbai Chapter of the IRFC

Date: 03 Sep 1998 06:43:20 -0500


Hi Gang !

The Pune - Mumbai chapter of the IRFC meets on the 13th September at
Karjat. I have confirmation with Viraf, Porus, Shrinivas and the Godrej
Gang. Let us do it this time.
Confirm outside of the mailing list. If you live in the region you are
most welcome.
Apurva

From: Heinrich Hubbert <>

Subject: Photos/ India Visit

Date: 03 Sep 1998 08:10:13 -0500


Hello all,

I am out for mother India soon and I hope, to see the lovlies soon
again.
The jpg is the Dohla-Jetalsar run in the afternoon. I hope ,the duty has
remained, as it is the best run for
these little steam-horses. See, how the driver is hangig out of the cab,
enjoying the refreshing wind and the speed in the heat of Kathiwar! Look
at the extra-water-tanker to serve the engines-thirst,
when she speeds with 50 miles per hours, through the Semi-desert of
Kathiwar.
Look at the IRS-coaches!
It is not 1968 but close to 2000 and maybe anyone could still enjoy
some 130 kms-ride behind a galopping and trashing Pacific
- for some cents!
Go there or be square,
Heinrich

Excuse me, but this is my first (and last) jpg, I spread on this list
I think, 82 kB are not to much

From: Mariappan <>

Subject: Re: Final list of the timetable seekers

Date: 03 Sep 1998 08:25:12 -0500


Add me to ur list of requred guys for Final TT list
 
 
Thank You
 

From: Steven Brown <>

Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.

Date: 03 Sep 1998 11:21:22 -0500


I found an article in the pioneer that is at least a partial answer to
the
problem of providing information about late running trains. Apperently
an
automated interactive voice responce system (IVRS) is already
functioning on
the Northern and Western railways that provides " real time "
information on
train movements. I believe that we should support the use of tools such
as
this to make travel more comfortable rather than being too critical of
railway emloyees or suggesting that privatization is the answer. If we
support privatization, we will not be able to have a positive influence
on
the current railway management.

Has anyone tried calling the IRVS phone # (132+train number in Mumbai,
1330 or 1335+ train number in Delhi)?

Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Dheeraj Sanghi <dheeraj@csealpha2.email
To: irfca@cs.email <irfca@cs.email
Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 10:53 PM
Subject: poor passenger service on IR.


>
>I had an experience last night which I thought I will share with you.
>I was scheduled to take Marudhar Express from Kanpur to Jaipur.
>The train is from Varanasi to Jodhpur. It reaches Kanpur at 12:35 AM.
>
>So I reached station at midnight. The train is listed as "late
>indefinitely." I had tried calling station before going there and
>no one was answering the phone. Anyway I asked the enquiry person
>if he had any idea. I was wondering if I could go back home and
>come back in the morning. He said that I could safely assume that
>the train is at least 3 hours late. This was hardly useful info
>since I could not go back to IIT and come back at 03:30 AM, and
>what if they were to tell me again to return after another 3 hours.
>
>After entering every office which was open at that time, and
>enquiring from every tom, dick and harry, I was finally pointed to one
>gentleman. He was extremely helpful, and told me the exact status of
>the train. The train was to start from Varanasi at 02:30 AM, and he
>said that even if the train were to run at max speed, it would not be
>able to reach Kanpur before 08:30 AM, but the likely time is 09:30 AM.
>
>I asked him why they don't tell at the enquiry that the train is at
>least "8 hours late" instead of "indefinite" late. This will help all
>the passengers since they can go back to their respective homes, and
>have a proper sleep. This will also reduce congestion and tension
>at the station. I was told some rules, which I didn't understand.
>
>I just called the station out of curiosity,
>and the train is running 12 hours late.
>
>Anyway, we decided that we will cancel our trip to Jaipur.
>There was a counter to cancel tickets for trains that leave
>in the night. But it won't cancel the return journey ticket.
>We had to go again in the morning. Also, while we will get
>full refund for onward journey since the train is more than
>3 hours late, but we would have to pay 25% cancellation
>charges on the return journey. Shouldn't the two be linked.
>
>The purpose of this mail is not to bitch about railway services,
>but to point out that there are areas in which the passenger
>service can be improved without any major investments. And as
>someone was suggesting earlier, perhaps IRFCA could try to come
>up with such suggestions and send them to appropriate authorities.
>The two examples from this mail are:
>
>1. If they have exact information about the late running of
> the train, what are these rules that stop them from giving
> that information to the public. Can't they be changed.
>
>2. If one is cancelling an onward journey because of late
> running of train, and the return journey is scheduled
> soon thereafter, shouldn't they cancel the return
> journey ticket also without deducting any money.
>
>-dheeraj
>--------------
>Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638 (Off)
>Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
>Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413 (Fax)
>Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
>
>

From: Dr. K.J. Walker & Mrs. M.E, Heath <>

Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.

Date: 03 Sep 1998 17:35:21 -0500


Hi all, and especially Don, Dheeraj and Vijay,
Unlike Vijay and Don, I don't agree that privatisation is necessarily
the
best answer. The idea that OWNERSHIP is what matters goes all the way
back
to Adam Smith and (particularly) Karl Marx. But it doesn't. The idea
that
private firms are efficient and public ones aren't is a myth. Every
large
corporation has its share of lazy sods not pulling their weight, some of
them at the top on $3m p.a., and others near the bottom being paid
ratshit
wages for grubby jobs.
What matters is HOW THE OUTFIT IS RUN. In Australia, until the
present
wave of ecionomic irrationalism and imported Yanqui mismanagers on $3+m
of
OUR money, we had many public enterprises which were very well run
indeed.
One of the best was the publicly-owned domestic airline, TAA (now part
of
Qantas) which was one of the most efficient in the world, with a truly
enviable safety record. (It's not conservative politically correct to
mention that competing private airlines did not do as well.) Several
(not
all) of our State-owned railways were quite efficient, and Commonwealth
Railways (which operated the transcontinental line) was on the cutting
edge
for many years (it has now been dismembered to provide profits for the
boys). What's wrong with IR is that it is administered on the American
system for public enterprise: you appoint dumb, under-trained,
underqualified staff to jobs in which you never monitor performance and
never sack for incompetence. Bingo -- lousy service, whether it's the
U.S.
Post Office or IR. And the pols. claim that public enterprise can never
work -- which is a self-fulfulling prophecy if you staff it with goons.
NO enterprise can afford to give a free ride to anyone, directors
or
peons. And ALL enterprises do better by offering proper training
recruiting
good talent, and regularly weeding out incompetents. I.R. could do it,
but
it does mean a pretty good shake up first. Among other things -- as we
learnt in Australia back in the 1880s -- control over appointments must
be
firmly removed from political interference.
The dreadful warning is Britain. During the 1950s, it nationalised
railways, coal and steel -- and put the same buffoons in charge who had
already run all three industries into the ground. Result -- decades of
wasted public money. So come the 1990s, the appalling Thatcher's nasty
clones decided to sell Brutish Railways -- or rather the profitable bits
--
to their idiot mates who can't make an honest penny at legitimate toil.
Result: chaos. Train services don't run or run late; they fall off track
which is undermaintained to push up profits, sometimes killing the
customers, and the whole exercise has cost the British taxpayers £1,800
MILLION. For that, they could have bought a new railway.
There are good and bad private firms just as there are good and
bad
public enterprises; but it is management, not ownership, that is
important
to determining performance.
Happy railfanning,
Ken Walker

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald L. Mills, Jr <dmills@MARSHALL.email
To: Dheeraj Sanghi <dheeraj@cseultra1.email
irfca@cs.email
<irfca@cs.email vijay_642@hotmail.email <vijay_642@hotmail.email
Cc: dheeraj@iitk.email <dheeraj@iitk.email
Date: Thursday, 3 September 1998 2:02
Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.


>I like privitazation as well, just make sure you keep your passenger
>service in tack once these new rail owners come on line. Don in WV
>
>----------
>> From: Dheeraj Sanghi <dheeraj@cseultra1.email
>> To: irfca@cs.email vijay_642@hotmail.email
>> Cc: dheeraj@iitk.email
>> Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.
>> Date: Wednesday, September 02, 1998 2:20 PM
>>
>> > I strongly feel that privatization is the answer.
>> >
>> > Why not have private parties run our trains by leasing the
>> > infrastructure from IR but providing their own personnel?
>> > What are the pros and cons of such a move?
>>
>> If IR is interested in privatization, there are lots of things
>> it can do before allowing private operators of trains. It can
>> privatize production units, give out contracts for cleaning staff,
>> maintenance, and a whole lot of things. There used to be some
>> talks of this nature during the Congress regime. But the UF
>> government went the other way and hired a lot of staff (so-called
>> casual labourers were regularized).
>>
>> Maybe IR will start seeking help of private sector in near future,
>> but I don't foresee them letting private guys run trains (except
>> for luxury trains). And private guys won't be willing to run
>> trains either, given that IR would not be willing to give any
>> performance guarantees. We can take a look at the fate of private
>> power projects. They wanted a tri-partite agreement between
>> Coal India Ltd, Railways and the power company themselves for
>> timely delivery of fuel (that is coal) to the power house. Both
>> CIL and IR refused initially. When they did agree to pay the
>> penalty for non-delivery of fuel, they asked for a very hefty
>> hike in the freight rates over the normal rates. any private
>> operator would like to IR to guarantee that the train won't be
>> delayed due to IR problems, and this IR would never do.
>>
>> So forget about privae trains. And I am not much excited with
>> the thought of private trains either. If IR can shed its
>> huge "excess" workforce, and contract out non-core services
>> (like cleaning, catering, etc.), things will be much better.
>>
>> -dheeraj
>> --------------
>> Dr. Dheeraj Sanghi (0512) 59-7077/7638 (Off)
>> Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering (0512) 59-8627 (Res)
>> Indian Institute of Technology (0512) 59-0725/0413 (Fax)
>> Kanpur - 208 016 (UP), INDIA. dheeraj@iitk.email
>

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR.

Date: 03 Sep 1998 20:11:25 -0500


YES I HAVE TRIED CALLING THIS NO AND JUST ENQUIRED ABOUT FRONTIER MAIL
I.E.2904 UP AND WAS TOLD THAT IT IS 4 HRS LATE AND HAS PASSED SHAMGARH
STN
ON WED 2ND SEPT 1998 AT 9.15 P.M. THIS WAS JUST A CASUAL ENQUIRY AS I
WANTED TO CONFIRM THE RUNNING OF THIS TRAIN. IVRS NO 132 DOES WORK AND
WE
MUST USE THIS TOOL TO OUR ADVANTAGE.

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

From: Donald L. Mills, Jr <>

Subject: Re: poor passenger service on IR. Privitazitation may be the answer

Date: 03 Sep 1998 21:22:53 -0500


Dr. Walker,
My comments concerning private rail are simple. Private people tend to
take a personal interest in something that is there's, they also tend to
fight the battles they believe in. Goverment ran institutions (which I
am
not totally against) tend to go to the whims of elected officials. the
one down side to private ownership is that in order to keep a business
going the stockholders insist on one thing. Profit. Perhaps a good
compromise needs to be considered, If IR goes private perhaps a keep
proponet in its official bidding is a strict clause that passenger rail
as
a vital link for the country must be maintained at or beyond current
levels. Of course those lines around the major cities that have many
riders will go first. another proponet might be that those lines with a
limited potential for passengers but that provide a vital transportation
link to the rest of the country. might be kept under goverment control
or
sold to the largest owners of city services with the understanding that
these lines need to come before something such as a Surface
Transportation
Board and a general election of the area where the line is based before
a
passenger service can be eliminated. The object is to ensure cost
efficient transportation and plan for a future where energy fuels may
not
be abundant.

Just the thoughts of a dreamer.

Don in WV

----------

From: Anne Ogborn <>

Subject: Re: Photos/ India Visit

Date: 03 Sep 1998 21:48:41 -0500


Mr. Hubbert.

I am receiving multiple copies of your email with attached binary.
This has apparently shut down my email services.
Please refrain from sending binaries to the list. It is a violation of
list policy, and extremely inconvenient to those of us on the receiving
end.
If you wish to post binaries, there are other methods to do so, but
attaching
them to irfca email is inappropriate.

From: Vijay Balasubramanian <>

Subject: Re: Crew change/watering

Date: 04 Sep 1998 08:11:44 -0500


Thanks for the detailed information, Prakash.

> Crew change can occur when one of the following conditions exists:

>1) It is a station near loco shed with sufficient railway qtrs.
>2) Change of division

Maybe, that's the reason why WR trains such as the Swaraj Exp. and the
A.K. Raj have a halt at Mathura whereas so many CR trains skip it.


>Another thing to consider is that loco drivers (and motormen) do not
>work more than 6 hours in one set. Most sets are 4 to 4.5 hrs in
>duration.
>That allows them to work "doubles" during peak season without >creating

too
>much fatigue. Most of the long distance trains on WR (starting or
>ending
>MCT) run at night and it is too hazardous to work all the nights in >a
row
>for months and months for long hours.

During my memorable trip on the Bhopal Shatabdi loco. (WAP3) from
N.Delhi to Jhansi, I observed that the driver and an assistant took
charge from N.Delhi and were joined by two more people (Pushkar, was it
one or two additional folks?) at Agra. From Agra to Jhansi, the
original driver was still at the "wheel". We got down at Jhansi; I was
a little surprised that all the four got back in the cab since I had
expected the first two to relinquish the loco. I have to get back to my

video to find out who was the driver from Jhansi onwards.
We boarded the Punjab Mail at Jhansi nearly two hours later and were
greeted by the same Shatabdi Exp. (on its way back to N.Delhi) at Bina.

Unfortunately, I could not zoom in to capture the crew. Seems to me
that the Shatabdi Exp. is handled by Bhopal drivers.

Vijay

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