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From: sank <>

Subject: WDG2: wheel-type control

Date: 11 Jul 1998 22:30:56 -0500


I wonder if DLW and CLW want to standardise the
type of control between electric and diesel locos.
Of course, the control principle is completely
different in both, but I have a feeling some
human factors 'expert' at RDSO may have come
up with the notion that uniformity in controls
is ergonomically desirable.........
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: sank <>

Subject: Sleeping in odd places...

Date: 11 Jul 1998 22:37:51 -0500


> ...........Between Pune & Mumbai, I have
> seen guys sleep in the passage between the two
> cabs of the DC electrics....
Here's the weirdest one I have heard of: a friend
of mine (who shall go unnamed) travelling through
Bihar on an impossibly crowded train found himself
banished to the roof at night. Presumably to avoid
the draught, he climbed down on to the curved
sheet-metal awning above the vestibule door, lay down
on it, hooked an arm around the thin rail that runs
over the outer edge of the awning, and went to sleep.

Needles to add, I could feel shivers travelling
up and down my spine when I heard of this.......
--
Jayant S
--

From: sank <>

Subject: Query: Calcutta Metro

Date: 11 Jul 1998 23:47:41 -0500


Somehow seem to have missed out: Can someone
give me specs on the Cal Metro ? The
track gauge, current supply, type of rakes etc.....

Thanks:
--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: GOODWIN ALCO <>

Subject: Re: WDS5

Date: 12 Jul 1998 03:11:34 -0500


Hi Guys,
Can anyone there give me details on the WDS5. I am told there
were 21 of this type made in 1961 by Alco.
I am interested in what it actually looks like and what its Alco
Specification number is (possibly DL531?)
Brad Peadon

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Re: Query: Calcutta Metro

Date: 12 Jul 1998 09:34:42 -0500


Hi Jayant,

If I remember correctly, the gauge is 5'6" and the traction is third
rail 600 VDC. The whole rake is through vestibuled. It make a great
sight to peer through the train and see the ends of train turning much
before and after your own carriage. The pneumatically operated doors are
opened only at the station and recorded warning (in three languages,
Bengali, Hindi and English) is spoken before the door is closed as also
the station name and the next station is ---- announcements. On the
whole it seems like a very efficient system with very reasonable ticket
fare (one class only). The tickets have a magnetic strip coding and the
automatic gate stile allows entry onto the platform area. The Calcutta
metro is an excellent way to travel saving time and the pollution of a
surface transport. Water seepage seems to be a problem in some areas.
Metro rides are definitely not to missed when in Calcutta. The coaches
are made by ICF, Chennai and a spare (or rejected) Metro shell (without
wheels) serves as a rest area right at the main gate of the ICF.

Also not to be missed in Cal is their divine tram system, specially the
ride through the sylvan maidan area. I could do that all day, sitting
below the slowly turning full sized ceiling fan provided in the tram for
ventilation. The ridiculously low price of a ticket adds to the carefree
joy of a tram ride. There seems to be an air conditioned 'tourist
special' tram in operation. I remember some Australian initiative about
preserving and even expanding the Calcutta tram network, which is
threatened with closure once every now and then.

The almost invisible 'points' used for changing the direction of the
tram is manually operated. A man actually waits at the street corner
carrying a steel spike. As soon as the 'branching' tram arrives, he
quickly dodges the traffic and insert this spike near the rails and
turns a part of the rail to change the direction of the tram. After
waving the tram through, the point is brough back to normal. To be
honest, I still have not got a good look a the 'points' as this is
normally in the middle of a busy road and there is a very real
possibility of getting run over with the rash traffic. But the points
are not as well defined as the railway stuff. I have peered inside some
depots from the road and they look friendly enough to me, although I
have never gone inside. The turning radius of a tram is impressive.

While I am on the topic, do not miss the excellent ferry rides specially
while entraining/de- training at Howrah. When traveling light, just walk
out of HWH and take a ferry to the opposite shore rather than try and
cross the traffic choked Howrah bridge. Also not be missed is the Birla
science museum which contains a full scale tank loco and many static /
working models of our favourite mode of transport. In the other sections
of the museum, the working demonstrators of many scientific
effects/principles/ideas themselves belong to a museum in their own
right.

Apurva Bahadur

sank@telco.email wrote:

> Somehow seem to have missed out: Can someone
> give me specs on the Cal Metro ? The
> track gauge, current supply, type of rakes etc.....
>
> Thanks:
> --
> Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> --

From: Shankar <>

Subject: Re: Query: Calcutta Metro

Date: 12 Jul 1998 10:10:28 -0500


I THINK THE METRO USES STANDARD GAUGE TRACK.
POWER SUPPLY IS ON 900 V DC, 3RD RAIL ELECTRIFICATION.
THE STOCK IS BUILT BY ICF MADRAS, WITH ELECTRICALS BY NGEF BANGALORE.
THE ROLLING STOCK IS UNIQUE IN THAT THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES IN INDIA
WITH END MOUNTED CAB DOORS,I.E. THE MOTOR MAN GETS ON FROM THE VERY
FRONT OF THE CAB, I.E. FROM ABOVE THE COUPLER.
APART FROM THE LOW SLUNG PROFILE, TEH CARS ARE AIR COOLED, WITH BLOWERS.
SOME OF THE CARS ARE VERY NOISY INDEED.
THE DOORS ARE CONNECTED TO THE DRIVE MECHANISM: THE TRAIN WILL NOT START
UNLESS THE DOORS ARE CLOSED.
BEFORE EVERY STATION, THERE IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT IN THREE LANGUAGES:
ENGLISH, HINDI AND BENGALI. TEH DOORS OPEN AND CLOSE AUTOMATICALLY.
MAX. SPEED I THINK IS 75 KMPH.
ONLY 25% OF THE TRACKAGE IS REALLY UNDERGROUND. THE REST IS EITHER AT
GROUND LEVEL OR ELEVATED.
I SHALL POST IF I CAN THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE.
BEST REGARDS.
SHANKAR.



sank@telco.email wrote:
>
> Somehow seem to have missed out: Can someone
> give me specs on the Cal Metro ? The
> track gauge, current supply, type of rakes etc.....
>
> Tha

> --
> Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> --

From: Donald L. Mills, Jr <>

Subject: Re: Don's ideas for IR profitability

Date: 12 Jul 1998 14:01:52 -0500


Sank,

Look at British Columbia Rail on Canada's West Coast. They use on their
Vancover to Thunder Bay route. they use what I think are RDC cars.
These
are two (look like Budd Stainless steel cars that are self-propelled)
In
Push-Pull fashion with a single driver. These were quite common on
roads
like the C&O that covers the area I live in. Budd still makes stainless
steel cars, but Rensealear (Spelling) is the main passenger car maker in
Canada, Mexico & US. Could you send the comments you made on the India
ticketless riders to me so that I can create an article if the newspaper
isn't available?

Don in WV

----------
> From: sank@telco.email
> To: Donald L. Mills, Jr <dmills@MARSHALL.email
> Cc: IR List <irfca@cs.email
> Subject: Re: Don's ideas for IR profitability
> Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 1:00 AM
>
> > Look into getting Budd Cars as they are self-propelled and can
> > meet the service guidelines on many low passenger volume routes.
> India HAS been developing DMUs.....but if you mean single-unit
> vehicles I do not know of any. Perhaps something like the British
> experiment with road-going buses (blasphemous !! ;) )on rails may work
?
> Some TELCO buses in Sri Lanka seem to have been similarly adapted
> (Yes, yes, I know I work with a manufacturer of (ugh) road vehicles,
> but then they did make BEAUTIFUL meter gauge steam locos in their
> glorious past !!!). Do Budd still make stainless-steel cars ?
> > And by all means encourage the depot persons responsible to
> > adamantly collect train tickets.
> Fully in agreement. I always bought full tickets for footplate rides,
> and it will help IR if all us fans actively endorse ticketed travel.
>
> Thanks for the insights, Don.
>
> --
> Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> --

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: Don's ideas for IR profitability

Date: 12 Jul 1998 19:04:45 -0500


> India HAS been developing DMUs.....but if you mean single-unit
> vehicles I do not know of any. Perhaps something like the British
> experiment with road-going buses (blasphemous !! ;) )on rails may work
?

Yes it is there working on the M.G. section somewhere in Rajasthan. If
you
have a copy of July 1995 Trains At A Glance, it's picture is right there
on the cover. I guess it was introduced in 1994/95. It looks like a box
on wheels. Quite an UGLY looking thing UGH! I think a similar car
existed
again on the M.G.section of Lucknow Suburbs.

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: Anne O. <>

Subject: ticketless hijras

Date: 12 Jul 1998 19:10:26 -0500


> hi
>
> I really have hard time believing that you can travel free if you are
a
> hijra etc. can any one confirm???
>
> thanks


Well, I've personally done it many times. If you want somebody else's
word for it, Serena Nanda wrote about the practice in "Neither Man Nor
Woman".

There's a myth to account for the practice. An old hijra was going on
the train in the Punjab. She had just had her rebirth, and she was to
have her procession on the 40th day. But she was travelling on this
train and the crowd was berating her and the guard put her off with
kicks and blows.
So she cursed the railroad that the train would not leave that place
without her.
Well, came time to pull out and they couldn't get the locomotive to run.
They tried everything, and finally they came back and apologized to the
old mata ji and put her back up on the train. So she prayed to the
Goddess that the train would start, but she forgot to put her dupatta on
her head, so the train didn't go. Then she remembered her dupatta and
repeated her prayer, and the train went.
So, now there is no custom to ask a hijra for a ticket on a train.

On the Gharib Namaz one night coming back from Ajmer I heard this story
(I already knew it) from a bored guard who was sitting with a group of
us hijras travelling.

When I told Ved Prakash Vatuk of the Berkeley Folklore Institute this
custom he told me that at one time many different itinerant performers,
nautankis, etc. claimed this as a dan.

In addition, there is in some places no custom to ask a hijra for any of
the normal sorts of paperwork. For example, we regularly cross the India
- Bangladesh border without passports.

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <>

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Contact with WDG 2 locos]

Date: 12 Jul 1998 19:15:53 -0500


> Is there a
> > >book on IR's Diesels ? Are you the author of such a (proposed?)
book ?
> >

I know a gentleman in England who has finished a book on the present
day motive power of THE INDIAN RAILWAYS and is about to publish it. You
may write to him at:-

Mr. Jal Daboo
Four Beeches,
The Glebe,
Felbridge,
East Grinstead,
West Sussex RH19 2QT
ENGLAND.

Tel:1342 312788
==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: Anne O. <>

Subject: Re: World Records

Date: 12 Jul 1998 21:17:04 -0500


> Widest Gauge: The widest gauge in standard use is 5 feet 6
> inches. It is used in India, Pakistan, Ceylon, Spain, Portugal,
> Argentina and Chile. In 1883, there was a lumber railway in
> Oregon with a gauge of 8 feet.

A bit unsure what "standard use" is, but BART (the SF Bay rapid transit
system) is 5'-6".

From: Anne O. <>

Subject: Re: Query: Calcutta Metro

Date: 12 Jul 1998 21:47:33 -0500


>
> The almost invisible 'points' used for changing the direction of the
> tram is manually operated. A man actually waits at the street corner
> carrying a steel spike. As soon as the 'branching' tram arrives, he
> quickly dodges the traffic and insert this spike near the rails and
> turns a part of the rail to change the direction of the tram. After
> waving the tram through, the point is brough back to normal. To be
> honest, I still have not got a good look a the 'points' as this is
> normally in the middle of a busy road and there is a very real
> possibility of getting run over with the rash traffic. But the points
> are not as well defined as the railway stuff.


The switch may be a "tongue and mate" switch - most trolley switches
are.

On the outside rail there's a "mate" - simply a place where the main and
branching routes diverge, with a groove through the branching rail to
let the flange pass on the main route.

On the inside is a "tongue" - a steel block witha a hinge on the frog
end, free to swing on the point end.
This block is shaped so the vertical surface lies against the curved
stock rail when the switch is in the "main" position. In this position
the wheel is guided across the top of the tongue by a slot that runs
along the top.
When the tongue is in the branch position, the side of the tongue holds
the wheel against the curved stock rail. The wheel on the other side has
to follow.

This is hard to describe. I can get a picture of one from the San
Francisco Muni line if you'd like.

From: Peter Mosse <>

Subject: Budd RDC Cars (was Don's ideas for IR profitability)

Date: 13 Jul 1998 06:51:38 -0500


These are very versatile cars and can normally travel at higher speeds
over
lightly used lines than loco-hauled passenger trains. I have seen them
operated as single units or, on BC Rail, with as many as five units
working
in multiple.

The problem is that none have been manufactured for years and the few
that
are still in use are virtually life-expired. In fact, there have been
rumors for the last few years that the BC Rail RDC's would have to be
retired, which might very well result in the end of passenger service on
that railway (except for the high-profile Royal Hudson steam excursion
trains in the summer).

If railcars could not be manufactured in India, it would probably be
necessary to look to European or Japanese builders - but I certainly
think
that the concept of using such cars in India is excellent.

Peter Mosse


----------
> From: Donald L. Mills, Jr <dmills@MARSHALL.email
> To: sank@telco.email
> Cc: IR List <irfca@cs.email
> Subject: Re: Don's ideas for IR profitability
> Date: Sunday, July 12, 1998 5:01 PM
>
> Sank,
>
> Look at British Columbia Rail on Canada's West Coast. They use on
their
> Vancover to Thunder Bay route. they use what I think are RDC cars.
These
> are two (look like Budd Stainless steel cars that are self-propelled)
In
> Push-Pull fashion with a single driver. These were quite common on
roads
> like the C&O that covers the area I live in. Budd still makes
stainless
> steel cars, but Rensealear (Spelling) is the main passenger car maker
in
> Canada, Mexico & US. Could you send the comments you made on the
India
> ticketless riders to me so that I can create an article if the
newspaper
> isn't available?
>
> Don in WV
>
> ----------
> > From: sank@telco.email
> > To: Donald L. Mills, Jr <dmills@MARSHALL.email
> > Cc: IR List <irfca@cs.email
> > Subject: Re: Don's ideas for IR profitability
> > Date: Saturday, July 11, 1998 1:00 AM
> >
> > > Look into getting Budd Cars as they are self-propelled and can
> > > meet the service guidelines on many low passenger volume routes.
> > India HAS been developing DMUs.....but if you mean single-unit
> > vehicles I do not know of any. Perhaps something like the British
> > experiment with road-going buses (blasphemous !! ;) )on rails may
work
?
> > Some TELCO buses in Sri Lanka seem to have been similarly adapted
> > (Yes, yes, I know I work with a manufacturer of (ugh) road vehicles,

> > but then they did make BEAUTIFUL meter gauge steam locos in their
> > glorious past !!!). Do Budd still make stainless-steel cars ?
> > > And by all means encourage the depot persons responsible to
> > > adamantly collect train tickets.
> > Fully in agreement. I always bought full tickets for footplate
rides,
> > and it will help IR if all us fans actively endorse ticketed travel.
> >
> > Thanks for the insights, Don.
> >
> > --
> > Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
> > Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
> > TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
> > --

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: More notes on the DEMU

Date: 13 Jul 1998 09:38:42 -0500


Dear Friends,

The prototype DEMU was ready in 8 months by the ICF from the go ahead by
the RDSO. Each DEMU costs Rs. 6 crores where an imported DMU from
Alsthom or similar would cost Rs. 24 crores ! The imported content of
the DEMU is less than 1 % and most of the stuff is regularly available
off the shelf, thus keeping the cost down. The trouble is that ICF
cannot produce more of DEMUs and there will be a shortage situation at
least for a couple of years till other manufacturers like Jessops (are
they still around ?), Suri & Nayar, BHEL, BEML and Crompton also start
assembly. As a first step the RCF Kapurthala has taken over manufacture
of the Rajdhani Power car (special brake van with genset for Rajdhani &
Shatabdi) so that ICF can be free to make DEMUs. There are also DHMUs
(Hydraulics) which are initially more expensive with two engine of small
capacity (Cummins NTA 855 R underfloor engine), but carry 50 more
passengers than the DEMU. Over the next so many years both types of DMUs
will be tested before deciding which is a better option. India has had
very sad experiences with Hydraulic transmission while we have
formidable expertise in maintaining electric transmissions. It is the
'electrical' lobby vs the 'mechanical' lobby, which makes these
decisions.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Jishnu Mukerji <>

Subject: Re: Query: Calcutta Metro

Date: 13 Jul 1998 09:58:34 -0500


Shankar wrote:

> I THINK THE METRO USES STANDARD GAUGE TRACK.
> POWER SUPPLY IS ON 900 V DC, 3RD RAIL ELECTRIFICATION.
>

Hmmm, the last time I looked it was Broad Gauge (5'6") and 600V DC.

> ONLY 25% OF THE TRACKAGE IS REALLY UNDERGROUND. THE REST IS EITHER AT
> GROUND LEVEL OR ELEVATED.

Could you please provide more details about how you arrive at that
figure?
The last time I looked only a small section near Tollygunj and a km or
two
near Dum Dum was over ground and the rest was all underground. That
would
appear to make it almost 80% underground. What changed since then? Are
you
counting each track in the yard outside Dum Dum as separate while adding
up
the kms? Just curious...

Thanks,

Jishnu.

From: S Pai <>

Subject: single-unit diesel vehicles

Date: 13 Jul 1998 10:17:03 -0500




Perhaps the diesel rail-cars running on the Bangalore-Yelahanka line
belong
in this category? They do look like boxes on wheels. I think they're
essentially city buses plonked down on rails. I don't know if they're
still running.

-Satish


>> India HAS been developing DMUs.....but if you mean single-unit
>> vehicles I do not know of any. Perhaps something like the British
>> experiment with road-going buses (blasphemous !! ;) )on rails may
work ?

> Yes it is there working on the M.G. section somewhere in Rajasthan. If
you
> have a copy of July 1995 Trains At A Glance, it's picture is right
there
> on the cover. I guess it was introduced in 1994/95. It looks like a
box
> on wheels. Quite an UGLY looking thing UGH! I think a similar car
existed
> again on the M.G.section of Lucknow Suburbs.

From: sank <>

Subject: Re: Railcars on IR

Date: 13 Jul 1998 10:28:06 -0500


From Peter Mosse:
> If railcars could not be manufactured in India, it would probably be
> necessary to look to European or Japanese builders - but I certainly
think
> that the concept of using such cars in India is excellent.

Judging by the info posted by Apurva, IR is quite actively
developing railcars and DMUs. I remember reading that the
exceptional longevity of the Budd RDCs was due to their
stainless-steel construction; this may, admittedly, be
too expensive in India.

What would it be like if a similiar concept was applied
to narrow-gauge lines ? There is an ancient railcar on
the Kalka-Simla line, but I was thinking in terms of
modern lightweight vehicles. May even be interesting
if applied to the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway..........

--
Jayant S : ID Studio : Tata Technologies India Limited
Telco Premises : Pimpri : PUNE : 411 018 : INDIA
TEL 91(212)774261 ext 2534 : FAX 91(212)773191
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <>

Subject: Calcutta Trams

Date: 13 Jul 1998 11:05:44 -0500




>Anne O. wrote:
>This is hard to describe. I can get a picture of one from the San
Francisco
Muni line if you'd like.

Yes Anne, picture of the 'point' as well as details of the traction
system
are wanted. I still haven't figured out how the current pick up is done
with a tram's panto (?), there seems to be a reel whose groove runs atop
the
overhead wire, trailing continuos sparks at times. The control system is
a
normal 'Push & rotate' type handle also found on EMUs. There is a 'key'
which is required to be inserted while the driver/motorman (?) stands
and
drives his tram. Most of the motors and electricals carry the logo of
Mitsubishi. While in Calcutta I saw a derailed tram right on Rashbehari
Avenue, by the time I returned an hour later it had gone. Anyone with an
idea of the Trams in Mumbai which were disbanded in 1960s ?

Apurva

From: S Pai <>

Subject: IR and Y2K?

Date: 13 Jul 1998 15:11:45 -0500



I was reading an article on Year 2000 problems (for those who (somehow!)
haven't run into this term yet -- it has to do with computer problems
switching dates over from 1999 to 2000) which mentioned that in the US,
there is some concern now that should the Year 2000 bugs affect
switching
operations at railways, there may be widespread disruption of freight
traffic (including that of food items), because most railways in the US
*cannot* revert to manual switching now, even in an emergency. Manual
switches have mostly been retired and warehoused or scrapped.

I should think India would be better-placed :-) in this regard, since a
lot of the switching is presumably not software-controlled, or is easily
revertible to manual mode. However, it did bring up the question in my
mind, how much switching and routing in India is done automatically (by
computer software)? Any % figures by region?

What about other Year 2000 threats for IR? I'm sure the computerized
booking systems have some problems, but presumably that's not
particularly
terrible (not life-threatening, anyway). (Small comfort that India may
escape the worst of the problems in general because it isn't highly
computerized...)

-Satish

From: poras p.saklatwalla <>

Subject: Re: single-unit diesel vehicles

Date: 13 Jul 1998 20:44:34 -0500


There is also one on the Kalka Simla line it is indeed better to go by
the
small train than this rail car ! ugh!

PORAS P.SAKLATWALLA
TEL :5773535/3636
EXT :4226/4232/4237

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