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From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: The naming convention

Date: 06 May 1998 20:28:00 -0500


Gang,

If 'W' stands for Broad Guage why is a Mumbai EMU rake known as 'YSYL' ?
All the other Broad guage passenger rakes have a W in their name.
The 'YSYL' and the other BG EMU rakes are the widest vehicles in the
world (except at the Channel Tunnel ?) with a 12' width, where the rest
of the 'normal' BG rakes are 10'8 wide".

Has any one have the classifications of the goods and passenger coaches,
BCN, BCNA etc ?

Apurva Bahadur

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Exploring Indian Railways

Date: 06 May 1998 21:25:00 -0500


Shanku,
I have the book, but is is atleast three - four years old. Great piece of
work. I will send you a short review within a few days. Is Bill Aitken part of
this forum. He is on the 'Friends of Indian Railway Museum' group. Are there
any members from the now disbanded 'Indian Railway Study Group' using this
forus as well ? Perhaps Viraf knows ?
Apurva Bahadur



Shanku Niyogi wrote:

> Has anyone on the list checked out the book "Exploring Indian Railways" by
> Bill Aitken? Would you recommend it? I'd appreciate a short review if
> possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Shanku

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: STATIONS OF RAJDHANI

Date: 07 May 1998 00:39:00 -0500


VIRAL DESAI wrote:

> Hi all,
> Does any one has any idea about how the stoppages of Rajdhanis are decided?
>

> I distinctly remember that before the introduction od A.K.Rajdhani there
> was strong
> demand for stoppage of the Rajdhani at Surat .During his visit at Surat
> the Railway minister( don't remember who was it ?) had said that it was not
> possible to give a stoppage at Surat as the Rule with Rajdhanis was that
> it can have one stop per every state!!

No rules like that, just political pressure. Had the railway minister
been from
Surat, you would certainly had a stop !Recently there was a lot of
criticism
for the NDSL-TVC Rajdhani stopping at Rajapur (in Konkan) because the
minister
from there (names forgetting is contagious !) requested our own Nitesh
Kumar
and he agreed, all in a few minutes.

Please Viral try and use the station codes as much as possible, after
all we
are all very *educated* here ! It will help to bulid a data base of
codes and
will add a nice flavour to our postings

> I couldn't understand this then nor do I understand it now as at the same
> time the NDLS-HOW
(HWH is the correct station code)
> Rajdhani had stoppage at
kanpur (CNB) ,allahabad (ALD)
,mugalsarai (MGS)
> (All in UP).doesn't this rule apply to every RAJ.also the
bhubhaneshwar (BBS) RAJ.(via howrah- HWH ) has stoppages at Asansol
(ASN) as
well as DHanbad (DHB)
> a distance ao 60kms.
>
> also whats the logic of having stoppage of all the trains at a station like
Bhusaval (BSL) and not at Jalgaon ( JLN ?) which is quite a big city
compared
> to bhusaval
> (correct me if i am wrong) and the distace bet. them is very less. one
> point is that bhusaval is a big junction ,then why was jalgaon was not
> developed as a junction.there are many example like this .one more is
(again correct me if i'm wrong) erode and salem ( what is the code
?)where
> salem being bigger
city ,than erode (ED) dose not have stoppage of Rajdhani!
>

Good point !
Bhusawal (BSL) is where the main line bifurcates towards North India via
Khandwa (KNW) - Itarsi (ET) and towards East India via Nagpur (NGP) .
Also the
main road to South India is via Wardha (East) through Ballarshah. Hence
Bhusawal is very much more important than Jalgaon. The huge marshalling
yard at
Varangaon (outside Bhusawal) is the largest in Maharashtra (possibly the
second
largest in the country after Mughal Sarai, which is undoubtedly the
largest).
AC loco sheds, carridge and wagon works, running and non running staff
have
their home at Bhusawal. Also BSL is a watering point for the carriages.
Is it
something to do with availability of land for track laying, or presence
of
ample water (which Jalgaon will always have a shortage of) ? Jalgaon is
a
junction only to the single non eletrified line leading to Surat (Udhna)
via
Nandurbar, a route used by a very few trains.

Apurva Bahadur

> one another example that come to my mind is Katihar which has got a stop of
> Rajdhani! Is it such a major city ?
> can anyone comment on this.
>
> regards ,
> Viral

From: GlynThomas <GlynThomas@aol.email

Subject: Indian railway study group

Date: 06 May 1998 15:19:00 -0500


Apurva,
I was one of the 'Indian railway study group', and I think there are one or
two others on this forum. It's a pity that the group folded, because there was
some interesting hardcopy documents being collated. I understand that Kelvin
White, the founder, had a diagram book from one of the pre-nationaisation
railways that he was going to publish.

It would be nice if some of the material that the group collected was put on a
Web site somewhere. Does anyone have access to any of the unpublished
material? I have their old newsletters, and some Web space, but there may be
an issue over copyright of using scanned documents.

Glyn Thomas

From: Shankar <shankie@emirates.email

Subject: Re: The naming convention

Date: 07 May 1998 08:27:00 -0500


Actually, the codification and classification on the IR is so mind boggling
that I try and stick to figuring out classifications of locomotives only.

However, when talking of passenger cars and freight cars, while one cannot
understand them in toto, some indicators can be obtained.

1.PASSENGER CARS:
On passenger stock,
Y = Ladies G = General F or FC = First class L = Luggage van R = guard van
C= Luggage cubicle N = sleeper etc. ZZ = either power car or driving cab (not
sure) CD= Restaurant car PP = Postal car (RMS/mail van) VP= Motor car
carrier Z = a.c. car etc.

Hence, the last composite car of a train is classed
SYLR (Second class Ladies Luggage compartment Guard's cabin composite),
WGSCNY is a bg general second sleeper with ladies cabin and luggage cubicle
GS or WGS is a general second class car
YFYS :Ladies first and ladies second composite
YSYL is Ladies second ladies luggage (vendors) composite or something
WGSCNZ BG==(same as WGSCNY) air conditioned
FS: First/second composite
WCD: Restaurant car (Pantry cars have a different classification) etc.
Note that the use of the W is optional, to denote bg. mg cars have YGS etc.,but
is generally used.

The classification of freight cars is even more complicated.I know very little
about this, but, here,
B= Bogie (8-wheeler, i.e. fitted with two four wheeled bogies)
O= Open C= Covered BS: Bottom discharge U= Well wagon TP: Tanker.
Part of the classification also denoted the type of coupler, nowadays optional,
as ALL freight cars are fitted with CBC centre buck eye coupler ONLY.
X= High sided Y= low sided R: 4-wheeler etc.etc.Hence,
BOXC: Bogie Open High sided wagon with CBC coupler
BOXS: -" -"- -"- -"- screw coupler (now extinct)
(nowadays such cars are called BOX only.)I do not know BOXN; what teh N denotes.
(surprising, normally, if you call a wagon a 'box' car, you assume it is a
covered wagon.) On the IR , box cars are classed:
BCX: Bogie covered wagon
BOY: Bogie open low sided car
BOBS:Bogie open car with bottom discharge
TPGLR:Tank petorleum general 4-wheeler
CRT:Covered rail type (or something like that:thats what a yard personnel once
told me)
BFU: Bogie well car
BFR:Bogie flat car
BRH:Bogie flat car with end plates etc.

I must admit that 85% of this is true, but 15% is put together from info
gathered fromhere or there. Ihave no way of establishing the authenticity of
some of these.Any pointers, anyone?

Best regards.
Shankar.
At 10:58 AM 5/6/98 +0530, you wrote:
>Gang,
>
>If 'W' stands for Broad Guage why is a Mumbai EMU rake known as 'YSYL' ?
>All the other Broad guage passenger rakes have a W in their name.
>The 'YSYL' and the other BG EMU rakes are the widest vehicles in the
>world (except at the Channel Tunnel ?) with a 12' width, where the rest
>of the 'normal' BG rakes are 10'8 wide".
>
>Has any one have the classifications of the goods and passenger coaches,
>BCN, BCNA etc ?
>
>Apurva Bahadur
>
>
>
>

From: Shankar <shankie@emirates.email

Subject: Re: STATIONS OF RAJDHANI

Date: 07 May 1998 08:36:00 -0500


I do not know of the other Rajdhanis, nor about the 'one stop per state' theory,
but as far as the AK is concerned, it was a Rajdhani scheduled to follow the
conventional Rajdhani after a short gap of about 45 mins.
The stops of the AK were therefore so arranged as to cover those important
towns where th normal Rajdhani does not call.
And that it does, with the exception of Baroda and Kota, where both trains
stop.
After all, identical stops for two Rajdhanis runinning one behind the other
will be an unjustifiable duplication!
Best regards.
Shankar.


At 12:21 AM 5/6/98 +0500, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>Does any one has any idea about how the stoppages of Rajdhanis are decided?
>
>I distinctly remember that before the introduction od A.K.Rajdhani there
>was strong
>demand for stoppage of the Rajdhani at Surat .During his visit at Surat
>the Railway minister( don't remember who was it ?) had said that it was not
>possible to give a stoppage at Surat as the Rule with Rajdhanis was that
>it can have one stop per every state!!
>
>I couldn't understand this then nor do I understand it now as at the same
>time the NDLS-HOW Rajdhani had stoppage at kanpur ,allahabad
>,mugalsarai(All in UP).doesn't this rule apply to every RAJ.also the
>bhubhaneshwar RAJ.(via howrah) has stoppages at Asansol as well as DHanbad
>a distance ao 60kms.
>
>also whats the logic of having stoppage of all the trains at a station like
>Bhusaval and not at Jalgaon which is quite a big city compared to bhusaval
>(correct me if i am wrong) and the distace bet. them is very less. one
>point is that bhusaval is a big junction ,then why was jalgaon was not
>developed as a junction.there are many example like this .one more is
>(again correct me if i'm wrong) erode and salem where salem being bigger
>city ,than erode dose not have stoppage of Rajdhani!
>
>one another example that come to my mind is Katihar which has got a stop of
>Rajdhani!Is it such a major city ?
>can anyone comment on this.
>
>regards ,
>Viral
>
>
>
>
>

From: Philippe Quiot (TOG Devt. SA) <tog-sa@he.email

Subject: Re: Indian railway study group

Date: 07 May 1998 04:56:00 -0500


Hello,

Approved...

Means that we can do something more than
"just" chatting on the net...

My idea still is having one of the meter gauge loks running
somewhere in Europe, but I also like old papers, drawings etc...

They will help remembering theses Loks if none of them
is lucky enough to come here for retirement...

GlynThomas wrote:
>
> Apurva,
> I was one of the 'Indian railway study group', and I think there are one or
> two others on this forum. It's a pity that the group folded, because there was
> some interesting hardcopy documents being collated. I understand that Kelvin
> White, the founder, had a diagram book from one of the pre-nationaisation
> railways that he was going to publish.
>
> It would be nice if some of the material that the group collected was put on a
> Web site somewhere. Does anyone have access to any of the unpublished
> material? I have their old newsletters, and some Web space, but there may be
> an issue over copyright of using scanned documents.

--

===================================================================
TOG Devt. S.A. "IXpert" Philippe QUIOT
CH - 1092 Belmont tog-sa@he.email
internet/intranet consulting ( )
___ ____________ ( _ )
_________|___||____________| _____ | |
| [ ] |[ ] |___||___|_____|____|_|__|-|
______|__________[__] |[_____] |---------//-\\----|-----|
[ ] | |________//___\\ | )
[ Px48 ] | | | (________)\\__|_____|
[_____________________]==|_________|-|----/-\----/ -\--___\\|-
|=| ====== ====== |_________|_| - / - \ /-----(___)\\=|=|
| (O)(O) (O)(O) (O)-(O) /(O)-(O)/ |
===================================================================
"Times of Glory" trade/consulting in railway/travel/tourism areas
tog@bahnhofplatz.email
<A HREF="http://www.bahnhofplatz.com/">http://www.bahnhofplatz.com/</A>

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: The naming convention

Date: 07 May 1998 20:14:00 -0500


Shankar,

Great piece of work ! Will go over it and get back to you soon.

See more notes below

Apurva Bahadur

Shankar wrote:

> Actually, the codification and classification on the IR is so mind boggling
> that I try and stick to figuring out classifications of locomotives only.
>
> However, when talking of passenger cars and freight cars, while one cannot
> understand them in toto, some indicators can be obtained.
>
> 1.PASSENGER CARS:
> On passenger stock,
> Y = Ladies G = General F or FC = First class L = Luggage van R = guard van
> C= Luggage cubicle N = sleeper etc. ZZ = either power car or driving cab (not
> sure) CD= Restaurant car PP = Postal car (RMS/mail van) VP= Motor car
> carrier Z = a.c. car etc.
>
> Hence, the last composite car of a train is classed
> SYLR (Second class Ladies Luggage compartment Guard's cabin composite),
> WGSCNY is a bg general second sleeper with ladies cabin and luggage cubicle
> GS or WGS is a general second class car
> YFYS :Ladies first and ladies second composite
> YSYL is Ladies second ladies luggage (vendors) composite or something
> WGSCNZ BG==(same as WGSCNY) air conditioned
> FS: First/second composite
> WCD: Restaurant car (Pantry cars have a different classification) etc.
> Note that the use of the W is optional, to denote bg. mg cars have YGS etc.,but
> is generally used.
>
> The classification of freight cars is even more complicated.I know very little
> about this, but, here,
> B= Bogie (8-wheeler, i.e. fitted with two four wheeled bogies)
> O= Open C= Covered BS: Bottom discharge U= Well wagon TP: Tanker.
> Part of the classification also denoted the type of coupler, nowadays optional,
> as ALL freight cars are fitted with CBC centre buck eye coupler ONLY.
> X= High sided Y= low sided R: 4-wheeler etc.etc.Hence,
> BOXC: Bogie Open High sided wagon with CBC coupler
> BOXS: -" -"- -"- -"- screw coupler (now extinct)
> (nowadays such cars are called BOX only.)I do not know BOXN; what teh N denotes.
'NBOX' is what the 'sweetest community' calls it. Yes BOXN is open !
> (surprising, normally, if you call a wagon a 'box' car, you assume it is a
> covered wagon.)
N stands for Pneumatic ! that is air braked 'load'. Is the colour green
for N wagons standard, no I think there are exceptions, I think I had
seen Deep blue coloured coal hoppers at Singrauli in MP.
>On the IR , box cars are classed:
> BCX: Bogie covered wagon
> BOY: Bogie open low sided car
> BOBS:Bogie open car with bottom discharge
> TPGLR:Tank petorleum general 4-wheeler
> CRT:Covered rail type (or something like that:thats what a yard personnel once
> told me)
This is an infamous four wheeler wagon. The 'T' stands for
'Transition' Coupler, as sort of smaller CBC coupler. It is the most
unstable of all wagons, stay away from them when moving, they might
derail on you !
> BFU: Bogie well car
> BFR:Bogie flat car
> BRH:Bogie flat car with end plates etc.
What about the tanker wagons ? There is a great variety there. I know TK
is the standard Vaccum Braked Four wheeler tanker. I see that you have
mentioned TPGLR.
Have you seen the tanker wagons on the MG ? Very cute indeed. Also the
covered wagon on the NG (Barsi Light Railway)
>
> I must admit that 85% of this is true, but 15% is put together from info
> gathered fromhere or there. Ihave no way of establishing the authenticity of
> some of these.Any pointers, anyone?
>
> Best regards.
> Shankar.
> At 10:58 AM 5/6/98 +0530, you wrote:
> >Gang,
> >
> >If 'W' stands for Broad Guage why is a Mumbai EMU rake known as 'YSYL' ?
> >All the other Broad guage passenger rakes have a W in their name.
> >The 'YSYL' and the other BG EMU rakes are the widest vehicles in the
> >world (except at the Channel Tunnel ?) with a 12' width, where the rest
> >of the 'normal' BG rakes are 10'8 wide".
> >
> >Has any one have the classifications of the goods and passenger coaches,
> >BCN, BCNA etc ?
> >
> >Apurva Bahadur
> >
> >
> >
> >

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Indian railway study group

Date: 07 May 1998 20:26:00 -0500


Glyn,

Kelvin White had undertaken a massive task of getting together so
many people
around the world by snail mail. He even succeeded ! But the
administrative burden
must have been too demanding on one single individual, so the group was
disbanded eventually. I wish we could get that group together and
continue the excellent work done so far using the irfca forum.
Where are you Glyn ? I mean geographically. If you are in the UK then
perhaps it
could be easy for you to contact Kelvin. Do you have his postal address
and
telephone, which can be put up on the web and any user of this forum
nearest to him can contact him over telephone ? This way the older
issues that can be scanned and posted on the web Kelvin may have already
them on the computer. Also we can clear up the copyright issue here. I
do not think there should be any, as long as we give credit to the
original author clearly. After all the aim of this forum is to promote
open discussions on the Indian Railways and those were the aims of the
IRSG too. There are no profit motives here.

What I wish is to rope in the well known enthusiasts like Hugh Hughs
(who was with
the IRSG) and Bill Aitkin and many others I apologise for not listing.
Their
contribution will be tremendous. I realise that many of these are not
computer
users and not connected to the net or by email. Even here in India I
know so many
people who could contribute but not in the best 'computer enabled'. Let
us see how
this problem is to be solved !

Viraf, you are the best organised amongst us, why dont you put up the
addresses and the phone numbers of all your previous correspondents, so
they can be located and got together eventually ?

Apurva Bahadur

Glyn Thomas wrote:

> Apurva,
> I was one of the 'Indian railway study group', and I think there are one or
> two others on this forum. It's a pity that the group folded, because there was
> some interesting hardcopy documents being collated. I understand that Kelvin
> White, the founder, had a diagram book from one of the pre-nationaisation
> railways that he was going to publish.
>
> It would be nice if some of the material that the group collected was put on a
> Web site somewhere. Does anyone have access to any of the unpublished
> material? I have their old newsletters, and some Web space, but there may be
> an issue over copyright of using scanned documents.
>
> Glyn Thomas

From: Heinrich Hubbert <hubbert@cityweb.email

Subject: Re: Indian railway study group

Date: 06 May 1998 20:44:00 -0500


Philippe Quiot (TOG Devt. SA) wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Approved...
>
> Means that we can do something more than
> "just" chatting on the net...
>
> My idea still is having one of the meter gauge loks running
> somewhere in Europe,

Philippe, it will be of interest for you, that the price for a YP or YG
is about 12.000 Dollars.

This, I was told in Jetalsar recently, was payed on an auction.

Heinrich Hubbert

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrejnet.email

Subject: Re: Indian railway study groupi

Date: 07 May 1998 23:34:00 -0500



Hi Appu,

> the IRSG) and Bill Aitkin and many others I apologise for not listing.
> Their contribution will be tremendous.

Bill Akins is on the editorial for our "Friends of the National Rail
Museum 's" newsletter. I can get you his postal address.

> Viraf, you are the best organised amongst us, why dont you put up the
> addresses and the phone numbers of all your previous correspondents, so
> they can be located and got together eventually ?
>
OK but give me some time. I will also get in touch with Mr. Jal Daboo in
England who was the member of IRSG too. Infact Mr.Daboo and
myself were the only Indians in this Indian Railway Study Group - but
then Mr.Daboo is now a British Citizen.


Mr. Daboo has written and is about to publish a book about the modern
traction on Indian Railway. It will be something similar to the Platform 5
series books. It will be illustrated.

Is it ok if I print all the talk we do and show it to the Chief Public
Relations officer in Western Railway. I know him pretty well. Or better
still can I pass our mailing address to him. I think in this way these
chaps in the railways will come to know about us and our interest.

And regarding the X class locomotives:

In 1924 the Locomotive Standards Committee were instructed by the then
British Government to introduce new types of powerful locomotives in
India.

As a result six new types of Broad Gauge locomotives came into being and
they were called the IRS (INDIAN RAILWAY STANDARD)classes or the X class.

They were:-

XA Branch line passenger 4-6-2
XB Light passenger 4-6-2
XC Heavy passenger 4-6-2
XD Light Goods 2-8-2
XE Heavy Goods 2-8-2
XT Light Tank 0-4-2T

It was after the World War II that we acquired a new Pacific Type of
locomotive which was classified as WP. So it was after the war that "W"
was chosen for broad gauge instead of "X". The "Y' and "Z" remained
unchanged.

Regards
Viraf

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Indian railway study groupi

Date: 08 May 1998 04:04:00 -0500


VIRAF P.. MULLA wrote:

> Hi Appu,
>
> > the IRSG) and Bill Aitkin and many others I apologise for not listing.
> > Their contribution will be tremendous.
>
> Bill Akins is on the editorial for our "Friends of the National Rail
> Museum 's" newsletter. I can get you his postal address.
>
> > Viraf, you are the best organised amongst us, why dont you put up the
> > addresses and the phone numbers of all your previous correspondents, so
> > they can be located and got together eventually ?
> >
> OK but give me some time. I will also get in touch with Mr. Jal Daboo in
> England who was the member of IRSG too. Infact Mr.Daboo and
> myself were the only Indians in this Indian Railway Study Group - but
> then Mr.Daboo is now a British Citizen.
>
> Mr. Daboo has written and is about to publish a book about the modern
> traction on Indian Railway. It will be something similar to the Platform 5
> series books. It will be illustrated.
>
> Is it ok if I print all the talk we do and show it to the Chief Public
> Relations officer in Western Railway. I know him pretty well. Or better
> still can I pass our mailing address to him. I think in this way these
> chaps in the railways will come to know about us and our interest.

I guess so, after all he is only human, will have to get intrested sooner or
later.Are they on the net ?

>
>
> And regarding the X class locomotives:
>
> In 1924 the Locomotive Standards Committee were instructed by the then
> British Government to introduce new types of powerful locomotives in
> India.
>
> As a result six new types of Broad Gauge locomotives came into being and
> they were called the IRS (INDIAN RAILWAY STANDARD)classes or the X class.
>
> They were:-
>
> XA Branch line passenger 4-6-2
> XB Light passenger 4-6-2
> XC Heavy passenger 4-6-2
> XD Light Goods 2-8-2
> XE Heavy Goods 2-8-2
> XT Light Tank 0-4-2T
>
> It was after the World War II that we acquired a new Pacific Type of
> locomotive which was classified as WP. So it was after the war that "W"
> was chosen for broad gauge instead of "X". The "Y' and "Z" remained
> unchanged

Good Info !

> .
>
> Regards
> Viraf

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 08 May 1998 08:27:00 -0500


Dear Gang,

I need info on this:

Rumour has it that when the Rajdhani used to operate from BCT with a
coupler (pidgin for Double Headed) WDM2s from Vatwa or Ratlam shed,
there used to be two sets of staff. All the four were A specials (mail /
express drivers). The first pair of drivers 'worked' the 'load' upto
Surat and then other set took over. As the WDM2 has only one cab, there
were chairs on the footplate on which the spare set lolled until it was
their turn on the wield the throttle. Is this true ? What happens now
with the WCAM 2s in charge ? If WCAM 2 are being used now, what was the
reason the WCAM 1 was not used in the past ? Was it shortage of locos,
shortage of power within the WCAM1 or is it just macho desire to used
double headed WDM2s ? Rajdhani has always been air braked , is that
right ?
How many changes of drivers occur in a journey like BCT - NDLS Rajdhani
?

The passage of the Rajdhani, at full speed through crowded Dadar station
with a really superb sounding, long legged, loco pair with a 'winged'
Vatwa written on their front is a memory I will cherish for ever.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Prakash Tendulkar <prakash@us.email

Subject: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 07 May 1998 15:59:00 -0500


Apurva,

The information is partially correct. Double headed BCT-NDLS Rajdhani
did carry a crew of four, Two A-Grade drivers in the front loco and
two diesel technicians in the second.

The reason was entirely different, old Vasai creek bridge was not
strong enough to sustain the vibrations from two WDM2s. During
trial run of two light WDM2s, it managed to crack one pillar.
The second loco was shut down before the bridge, carrying Rajdhani
on the entire stretch between Bhayandar and Naigaon at a very
restricted speed, (slower than 45 kms speed limit for EMUs at
that time) and the second loco was turned on again at the end.

BTW, Rajdhani was not the only train to carry two A-grade drivers.
Jammu-Tawi Express, first headed by WDM2 and later by WCAM1 (single)
loco, it ran bi-weekly those days. The pair of drivers for Rajdhani
and Jammu Tawi worked just one trip a week to Baroda and back and
received 8000 kms. mileage allowance per month. There were four
such pairs.

On the other hand, Mumbai-Delhi deluxe (25 Dn in those days), was
hauled by WCAM1 by an A-grade driver with Asstt. driver, to Baroda
returning back to BCT next day.

Yes, BCT-NDLS Rajdhani had always been air braked train. If you wish
to refresh your memory about double headed Rajdhani, you can see
the picture at <A HREF="http://www.jps.net/prakash/wcam1">http://www.jps.net/prakash/wcam1</A>

Prakash



Notes Address: Prakash Tendulkar/Santa Teresa/IBM@IBMUS
VM Address: IBMUSM50(PRAKASH)
Internet Address: prakash@us.email
Phone: (408)463-3536
DB2 Technical Consultant, Vendor Partnership Program



iti@giaspn01.email on 05/07/98 01:36:36 PM
Please respond to iti@giaspn01.email
To: irfca@cs.email
cc:
Subject: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.


Dear Gang,

I need info on this:

Rumour has it that when the Rajdhani used to operate from BCT with a
coupler (pidgin for Double Headed) WDM2s from Vatwa or Ratlam shed,
there used to be two sets of staff. All the four were A specials (mail /
express drivers). The first pair of drivers 'worked' the 'load' upto
Surat and then other set took over. As the WDM2 has only one cab, there
were chairs on the footplate on which the spare set lolled until it was
their turn on the wield the throttle. Is this true ? What happens now
with the WCAM 2s in charge ? If WCAM 2 are being used now, what was the
reason the WCAM 1 was not used in the past ? Was it shortage of locos,
shortage of power within the WCAM1 or is it just macho desire to used
double headed WDM2s ? Rajdhani has always been air braked , is that
right ?
How many changes of drivers occur in a journey like BCT - NDLS Rajdhani
?

The passage of the Rajdhani, at full speed through crowded Dadar station
with a really superb sounding, long legged, loco pair with a 'winged'
Vatwa written on their front is a memory I will cherish for ever.

Apurva Bahadur

From: Siddhartha Joshi <siddha@cyberspace.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 07 May 1998 16:12:00 -0500


Bharat,

Yes, that is right. Also, the old loco change point was Ratlam,
where a WAP1e used to take over. Now the change is at Baroda (WCAM2p -->
WAP4(?)) . It would follow that the loco change would be acompanied by a
change in crew at these points, apart from the other regular crew change
points.


Siddhartha.

> Apurva,
> to start with Rajdhani locos to the best of my knowledge were never
> powered by Vatwa powers, but always by Ratlam locos. Vatwa never
> maintained in its stable a fleet of Rajdhani special locos!! I was always
> Ratlam!
> Secondly, the rumour that youve heard is untrue as Baroda is the cheduled
> driver change for rajdhani, has always been and continues to be so today!
> Rajdhani crews on WR operate from BCT-BRC, then a crew change till RTM
> then another crew change till KTT and then the last crew change till NDLS!
> 4 crews in all! So the problem of another crew travelling was never there
> and even if such a case arose surely they could have travelled in the cab
> of the second loco! Also the problem would therefor never arise for
> WCAM2's!
> WCAM1's were never used on Rajdhani cause the rake size and weight were to
> much for WCAM1's to handle. This is not to say that the WCAM1's were
> incapable but that the optimum HP required to haul the Rajdhani...to
> maximise acceleration and deceleration was about 3200 HP+ The WCAM1 were
> only 2600HP as was the case with the WDM2's. That is why even the Rajdhani
> when it was diesel hauled needed 2 WDM2's to haul it, as there HP was
> 2600HP each! Also till very recently all WCAM1's were vacuum braked and
> could therfor not handle an air braked rake! I have seen on occasion the
> AK being hauled by an airbraked WCAM1 but this is possible as the AK Raj
> is on average 5 coaches lighter then the Raj rake, so a WCAM1 can handle
> it!
> Regards,
> Bharat Vohra
>
>

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrejnet.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 08 May 1998 17:37:00 -0500


Hi Appu,

Rajdhani's power was always from Ratlam and never from Vatwa. There was a
change of crew at Baroda and then at Ratlam.

It will a surprise for you all to know that I have seen The Rajdhani
almost 10 years back being hauled by a single WCAM1. In those days the
train used to be much shorter. Might be on a trial run.

Regards

==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

From: PROTIP.DASGUPTA <protip@giasbmc.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 07 May 1998 23:22:00 -0500


Apurva,
to start with Rajdhani locos to the best of my knowledge were never
powered by Vatwa powers, but always by Ratlam locos. Vatwa never
maintained in its stable a fleet of Rajdhani special locos!! I was always
Ratlam!
Secondly, the rumour that youve heard is untrue as Baroda is the cheduled
driver change for rajdhani, has always been and continues to be so today!
Rajdhani crews on WR operate from BCT-BRC, then a crew change till RTM
then another crew change till KTT and then the last crew change till NDLS!
4 crews in all! So the problem of another crew travelling was never there
and even if such a case arose surely they could have travelled in the cab
of the second loco! Also the problem would therefor never arise for
WCAM2's!
WCAM1's were never used on Rajdhani cause the rake size and weight were to
much for WCAM1's to handle. This is not to say that the WCAM1's were
incapable but that the optimum HP required to haul the Rajdhani...to
maximise acceleration and deceleration was about 3200 HP+ The WCAM1 were
only 2600HP as was the case with the WDM2's. That is why even the Rajdhani
when it was diesel hauled needed 2 WDM2's to haul it, as there HP was
2600HP each! Also till very recently all WCAM1's were vacuum braked and
could therfor not handle an air braked rake! I have seen on occasion the
AK being hauled by an airbraked WCAM1 but this is possible as the AK Raj
is on average 5 coaches lighter then the Raj rake, so a WCAM1 can handle
it!
Regards,
Bharat Vohra

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 08 May 1998 20:28:00 -0500


Prakash Tendulkar wrote:

> Apurva,
>
> The information is partially correct. Double headed BCT-NDLS Rajdhani
> did carry a crew of four, Two A-Grade drivers in the front loco and
> two diesel technicians in the second.
>
> The reason was entirely different, old Vasai creek bridge was not
> strong enough to sustain the vibrations from two WDM2s. During
> trial run of two light WDM2s, it managed to crack one pillar.
> The second loco was shut down before the bridge, carrying Rajdhani
> on the entire stretch between Bhayandar and Naigaon at a very
> restricted speed, (slower than 45 kms speed limit for EMUs at
> that time) and the second loco was turned on again at the end.

This explains why there is a sign somewhere on the Naigaon bridge 'Raj
Drivers reduce speed now' or something to that order. Did the WDM2 pair go
all the way to NDLS ? Also what is the story now about the speed restriction
with the single WCAM 2 ?What caused the cracks, the weight of the two locos
or does a running WDM2 cause so much vibration ?
Just curiously, what are the controls which are used to connect two locos in
multiple unit? Physically the thick electrical cable between the locos and
the air hoses are obviously visible. What other controls have to be operated
to allow the 'slave' loco to operate in multiple with the lead loco, where
are these controls fitted in the lead or the slave ?
Leading to the question that if the slave loco was shut just before the
Naigaon bridge, how was it taken off the Multiple unit and reconnected
immediately after the bridge ? The sequence of shutting down the loco and
restarting must have been one of the most thrilling to experiance. Has any
one 'footplated' this sequence ?
I have heard from from Civil engineers in Mumbai Division that many of the
bridges and via ducts in the Bhore ghat between Karjat and Lonavala are not
strong to take the weight of three locos and may collapse eventually. But
the Ghat section regularly sees freight trains with three locos ( special
treat when they are WDM2s) in the front and three WCG2s at the back. I have
heard similar stories about the river bridge near Jinti Road on the Solapur
Division between Daund and Kurduwadi where only two locos are allowed.

Apurva Bahadur

>
>
> BTW, Rajdhani was not the only train to carry two A-grade drivers.
> Jammu-Tawi Express, first headed by WDM2 and later by WCAM1 (single)
> loco, it ran bi-weekly those days. The pair of drivers for Rajdhani
> and Jammu Tawi worked just one trip a week to Baroda and back and
> received 8000 kms. mileage allowance per month. There were four
> such pairs.
>
> On the other hand, Mumbai-Delhi deluxe (25 Dn in those days), was
> hauled by WCAM1 by an A-grade driver with Asstt. driver, to Baroda
> returning back to BCT next day.
>
> Yes, BCT-NDLS Rajdhani had always been air braked train. If you wish
> to refresh your memory about double headed Rajdhani, you can see
> the picture at <A HREF="http://www.jps.net/prakash/wcam1">http://www.jps.net/prakash/wcam1</A>
>
> Prakash
>
> Notes Address: Prakash Tendulkar/Santa Teresa/IBM@IBMUS
> VM Address: IBMUSM50(PRAKASH)
> Internet Address: prakash@us.email
> Phone: (408)463-3536
> DB2 Technical Consultant, Vendor Partnership Program
>
> iti@giaspn01.email on 05/07/98 01:36:36 PM
> Please respond to iti@giaspn01.email
> To: irfca@cs.email
> cc:
> Subject: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.
>
> Dear Gang,
>
> I need info on this:
>
> Rumour has it that when the Rajdhani used to operate from BCT with a
> coupler (pidgin for Double Headed) WDM2s from Vatwa or Ratlam shed,
> there used to be two sets of staff. All the four were A specials (mail /
> express drivers). The first pair of drivers 'worked' the 'load' upto
> Surat and then other set took over. As the WDM2 has only one cab, there
> were chairs on the footplate on which the spare set lolled until it was
> their turn on the wield the throttle. Is this true ? What happens now
> with the WCAM 2s in charge ? If WCAM 2 are being used now, what was the
> reason the WCAM 1 was not used in the past ? Was it shortage of locos,
> shortage of power within the WCAM1 or is it just macho desire to used
> double headed WDM2s ? Rajdhani has always been air braked , is that
> right ?
> How many changes of drivers occur in a journey like BCT - NDLS Rajdhani
> ?
>
> The passage of the Rajdhani, at full speed through crowded Dadar station
> with a really superb sounding, long legged, loco pair with a 'winged'
> Vatwa written on their front is a memory I will cherish for ever.
>
> Apurva Bahadur

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 08 May 1998 20:41:00 -0500


PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Apurva,
> to start with Rajdhani locos to the best of my knowledge were never
> powered by Vatwa powers, but always by Ratlam locos. Vatwa never
> maintained in its stable a fleet of Rajdhani special locos!! I was always
> Ratlam!

Maybe what I saw was the AK Rajdhani. A few years ago, I have seen a 'stud'
WDM2 pair from Vatwas (just arrived and cooling with loud clicks from the
cylinder blocks) at Bandra Diesel shed. I was infromed by the shed foreman
that this was the Rajdhani 'power'. It had all the trappings of the Rajdhani
power including the connector for the 'in cab' telephone with the telephone
cable between the two locos.Yet the normal loco for the Rajdhani has always
been the cream and red pair from RTM.What is the equivalent 'train of
prestige' on the CR, in Mumbai. Only the Deccan Queen I guess. Which train on
the CR at Mumbai will be on the no 2 position and which will be the long
distance train of prestige on the CR ?

> Secondly, the rumour that youve heard is untrue as Baroda is the cheduled
> driver change for rajdhani, has always been and continues to be so today!
> Rajdhani crews on WR operate from BCT-BRC, then a crew change till RTM
> then another crew change till KTT and then the last crew change till NDLS!
> 4 crews in all! So the problem of another crew travelling was never there
> and even if such a case arose surely they could have travelled in the cab
> of the second loco! Also the problem would therefor never arise for
> WCAM2's!
> WCAM1's were never used on Rajdhani cause the rake size and weight were to
> much for WCAM1's to handle. This is not to say that the WCAM1's were
> incapable but that the optimum HP required to haul the Rajdhani...to
> maximise acceleration and deceleration was about 3200 HP+ The WCAM1 were
> only 2600HP as was the case with the WDM2's. That is why even the Rajdhani
> when it was diesel hauled needed 2 WDM2's to haul it, as there HP was
> 2600HP each! Also till very recently all WCAM1's were vacuum braked and
> could therfor not handle an air braked rake! I have seen on occasion the
> AK being hauled by an airbraked WCAM1 but this is possible as the AK Raj
> is on average 5 coaches lighter then the Raj rake, so a WCAM1 can handle
> it!
> Regards,
> Bharat Vohra

From: Shrinivas Bhatwadekar <shrinivas@rocketmail.email

Subject: Re: BCT NDLS Rajdhani Exp.

Date: 08 May 1998 01:19:00 -0500


PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:
>
> > Apurva,
> > to start with Rajdhani locos to the best of my knowledge were never
> > powered by Vatwa powers, but always by Ratlam locos. Vatwa never
> > maintained in its stable a fleet of Rajdhani special locos!! I was
always
> > Ratlam!

Hello ,

That's correct.To the best of my knowledge also,Rajdhani Exp. was always
hauled by Ratlam locos.These days, Rajdhani is hauled by conventional
AC/DC WCAM locos from Mumbai Central to Vadodara & from Vadodara to
New Delhi by the new 6000 hp, three-phase WAP5 locos.

-- Shrinivas Bhatwadekar

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