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From: PROTIP.DASGUPTA <protip@giasbmc.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 27 Apr 1998 22:33:00 -0500


Hi Paul!
Just a clarification, the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway is a narrow gauge
concern of 2 feet, but the OOty Nilgiri Railway is a metre gauge railway
and cannot be reffered to as Narrow Gauge or toy train!
Reagrds,
Bharat Vohra

From: poras p.saklatwalla <pps@godrejnet.email

Subject: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 20:43:00 -0500


Has anyone ever thought of the numbering system of our trains in India ?
Apart from trains operating on WR and CR none of the trains have been
given chronological nos for eg:-

Mumbai Delhi Rajdhani express is 2951 dn /2952 up, but take this glaring
e.g. of Calcutta Mail via Allahbad which is 3004 dn /3003 up. How can it
be that the smaller no is up and the larger one is down.
Surprising as it may sound but there are umpteem no of trains like this
one.

2001 up NDLS BHOPAL SHATABDI EXP/ 2002 DN BHOPAL NDLS SHATABDI EXP. WHAT
I AM TRYING TO CONVEY IS IF BHOPAL IS THE MAIN DEPARTURE STN THEN IT
SHOULD BE 2001 DN FROM BHOPAL AND VICE VERSA, SIMILAR TO THE ONE WE ARE
USED TO IN MUMBAI.

THEN AGAIN ON MY RECENT VISIT TO MADRAS I WENT BY 1063 DN CHENNAI EXPRESS
AND WHEN I WAS RETURNING THE NO OF THE TRAIN MENTIONED AT MADRAS WAS 1064
DN. DOES THIS MEAN THAT ALL TRAINS LEAVING MUMBAI ARE UP TRAINS ON ARRIVAL
STATIONS AND ALL TRAINS COMING FROM OTHER CITIES ARE DN TRAINS TILL THEY
REACH MUMBAI ARE DN AT ALL INTERMEDIATE STATIONS AND AT MUMBAI ARE
ANNOUNCED AS UP TRAINS.\

I FIND THIS VERY CONFUSING, COULD ANYONE FROM OUR GROUP EXPLAIN THE LOGIC
BEHIND THIS SYSTEM ?

SINCE I WAS VERY YOUNG IN THE STEAM AGE COULD ANYONE TELL WHAT WERE THE
DIFFERENT STEAM BEAUTIES ON BROAD GUAGE AND METER GUAGE. ALSO WHICH STEAM
ENGINES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HIGHSPEED AND ON WHAT TRAINS WERE THEY
ATTACHED. I REMEMBER THAT WHEN I WAS SMALL I TRAVELLED BY FRONTIER TO
DELHI AND IT WENT AT A VERY GOOD SPEED.

ALSO COULD SOMEONE TELL ME HOW MANY STNS DOES DELHI HAVE. I KNOW OLD
DELHI, NEW DELHI AND NIZAMMUDIN. OLD DELHI HAD TWO GUAGES MG GOING TO
JAIPUR AND AHMEDABAD AND ONE GOING TO N ORTH.

DO ALL TRAINS GOING TO NORTH FROM MUMBAI LIKE FRONTIER, PASCHIM, JAMMU
TAWI ETC TOUCH NDL AND OLD DELHI ? OR IS THERE ANY WAY THEY AVOID OLD
DELHI. WHAT CONFUSES ME IS THAT WHILST GOING TO KALKA THE SHATABDI
STARTED IN A DIRECTION TOWARDS MUMBAI AND THEN PASSED THRU STNS LIKE SADAR
BAZAR, SABZI MANDI ETC. BUT THE KALKA MAIL DOES NOT TOUCH NDLS AT ALL AND
GOES STRAIGHT TO DELHI ? HOW IS THIS P OSSIBLE ? CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN
PLS!
AND WHAT ROUTE DOES IT TAKE TO KALKA ?

ALSO WHAT IS THE GRAND CHORD ROUTE ? DOES CAL RAJDHANI FOLLOW THIS ROUTE
ALSO?
THE MUMBAI JAMMUTAWI GOES TO AMBALA VIA A DIFFERENT ROUTE PASSING THRU
NDLS DEL AND DOWN FURTHER SO IS THE SHALIMAR EXPRESS? THEN HOW DO THEY
REACH AMBALA ?
SOMEONE IN THE GROUP, PLS EXPLAIN TO ME THIS AS INDIAN RLY IS TRULY GREAT
AND VAST TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT IT.

P.P.SAKLATWALLA
4226/4232/4237

From: sank <sank@telco.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 21:27:00 -0500


> SINCE I WAS VERY YOUNG IN THE STEAM AGE COULD ANYONE TELL WHAT WERE THE
> DIFFERENT STEAM BEAUTIES ON BROAD GUAGE AND METER GUAGE.

I distinctly remember WG, WP and CWD types on the broad gauge as I spent
many happy hours at New Jalpaiguri watching them in action. YG, WD and
YP on the meter gauge were a common sight there and at Siliguri, as well
as the DHR B-Class saddle-tanks......the CWDs went early on, but the
rest
hung around into the nineties. I also remember other steam locos in the
early
seventies: including BG side tank locos at Lucknow, and another BG
tender type with smoke deflectors (like on the YP/YGs), but I was way
too
young then to have remembered the classes..........must have been
BESA or XP types. Really miss steam on IR today.

> WHAT CONFUSES ME IS THAT WHILST GOING TO KALKA THE SHATABDI
> STARTED IN A DIRECTION TOWARDS MUMBAI AND THEN PASSED THRU STNS LIKE SADAR
> BAZAR, SABZI MANDI ETC.

If it went northwards from NDLS then it could avoid Delhi Junction stn,
and
go through Sadar Bazar etc. as you have described, but trains to Mumbai
from NDLS depart southwards: so there seems to be a contradiction here.

This is from what I remember of the Delhi layout: can anyone clarify ?

> BUT THE KALKA MAIL DOES NOT TOUCH NDLS AT ALL AND
> GOES STRAIGHT TO DELHI ?

Where does it come in from ? If it is coming northwards from Mathura,
then
to avoid NDLS it can either go west just before Hazrat Nizamuddin, and
go through Lajpat Nagar/Moti Bagh etc. (the circular route) or
go east after NZM, cross the Yamuna, turn north just before Sahibabad,
pass through Shahdarah, cross the Yamuna again and enter Delhi
Junction...
both seem rather circuitous options to me. Maybe it simply passes
without
stopping through NDLS ?

--
Jayant S : IDStudio : TTIL : ERC : TELCO
Pimpri : Pune : 411 018 : INDIA
tel - 91(212)774261 exn 2534
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 28 Apr 1998 22:49:00 -0500


Prakash Tendulkar wrote:

> >3. The WCAM class locos found on the WR and now on the CR in and about
> >Mumbai have a single bar pantograph (for operation in the AC section
> >with higher voltage and lesser current) and a two bar pantograph for use
> >in the higher current DC section. But the current selection is done at
> >switch gear stage. I have seen WCAM1 shunt in Mumbai Central (MCT nee
> >BCT) with the single bar panto and the drivers said it can be done as
> >the current during shunting "light" to stable the power is very
> >low. Can any body explain the correct working of the WCAM class of
> >locos - Sunder ?
>
> Apurva,
>
> WCAM1 has a selector on the right most side of horizontal control
> panel for selecting pantograph. It has four positions, DC, AC, DC-
> ALT and AC-ALT. In DC and AC-ALT mode, pantograph with two
> collector shoes is raised; in AC and DC-ALT, pantograph with one
> collector shoe is raised. It should be noted that ALT mode also
> switches the circuitry to appropriate voltage.

Prakash, Thanks for you reply,

It is this ALT position that makes the WCAM class such an interesting
machine. Is there a logic mechanism that detects the in coming voltage
and
then connects the panto to either the resistor bank or the transformer.
What
is the complete meaning of this ALT position ? Has the WCAM class ever
hauled
a train direct to its destination [NDLS(New Delhi)or any other] without
a
change at Baroda or Igatpuri. I know of Panchawati Exp hauled by the
same
WCAM3 loco from CSTM (ex Mumbai VT) to Manmad, but Manmad is only 100
KMs
from Igatpuri. My guess is that the relative shortage of the WCAM class
locos prevent the sending of these locos on all the routes from Mumbai.
What
is the difference between WCAM1 / WCAM2 on the WR and the WCAM 3 on the
CR
in terms of HP and other features ?
Which approach is better ? Changing the loco at Igatpuri (on CR) and
charging
the line to a different voltage or using the same loco and running them
through a dead link when changing the pantographs. It must be kept in
mind
that Virar is a flat terrain while Igatpuri is on top of the Thull ghat
and
any train must stop to let off the WCG2 bankers, hence the main loco may
as
well be changed. Do diesel hauled (freight) trains coming from Manmad
side
stop at Igatpuri - they have to - as the divisions change - Bhusawal
divisions to Mumbai division- and the staff changes. Also the brake
power has
to be certified by the TXR (train inspector) before any freight train
begins
to descent the ghats.

> In real life, driver rarely gets a chance to see which pantograph
> is up; all he knows is the position of selector switch. I have
> seen cases where loco shed as replaced damaged original pantograph
> to another type due to un-availability of right part.
> Nevertheless, it is okay to run loco hauling a goods train with
> DC-ALT pantograph raised.
>
> The only time, the driver has to raise or lower pantograph, when
> locomotive is in motion is, the changeover point a few kilometer
> north of Virar. It is also known as dead zone because there is one
> structure length of wire with no voltage in it. (actually 3
> structure length but the first and 3rd structure also has a wire
> with live voltage.) One kilometer before this dead zone, a sign
> alerts driver with "1000 meters" warning followed by another at
> "500 meters" and "dead zone". Going from Mumbai towards Dahanu,
> the driver shuts the loco off, lowers the DC pantograph and waits
> for 3rd structure where AC section begins. At this point, he
> raises AC pantograph. After about 30 seconds, his voltmeter shows
> 25 KV and he restarts the traction equipment.
>
> In AC section, when the phase of overhead line changes, similar
> process is executed, except that the pantograph is not lowered.
>

Driving the AC locos must be a very nerve wracking task Every so many
KMs the
loco has to switched off totally and the coast through the dead section.
If
the live loco enters this section then a HUGE flashover will result
tripping
the loco and bring the train to a halt or worse tripping the substation
(substations ?) and bringing all the traffic to a halt.

> >What happens if the wrong selection has been made at
> >the wrong time ?
>
> He will blow fusible link located near pantograph, will have to
> raise appropriate ALT pantograph and receive suspension order. No
> further damage is possible because the only equipment that is live
> when pantograph is raised is Voltmeter. All others like
> compressor, exhauster, motor-generator have to be switched on
> manually.
>
> Prakash
>
> Notes Address: Prakash Tendulkar/Santa Teresa/IBM@IBMUS
> VM Address: IBMUSM50(PRAKASH)
> Internet Address: prakash@us.email
> Phone: (408)463-3536
> DB2 Technical Consultant, Vendor Partnership Program

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 22:55:00 -0500


poras p.saklatwalla wrote:

> Has anyone ever thought of the numbering system of our trains in India ?
> Apart from trains operating on WR and CR none of the trains have been
> given chronological nos for eg:-
>
> Mumbai Delhi Rajdhani express is 2951 dn /2952 up, but take this glaring
> e.g. of Calcutta Mail via Allahbad which is 3004 dn /3003 up. How can it
> be that the smaller no is up and the larger one is down.

Apparently the Eastern railway trains (starting from numbers 3) and the NE
railway trains (starting from 5) reverse the numbers while operating towards
Mumbai. Note that 6011 Dn Chennai Express is 'Down' till Guntakal thereafter
it is refereed to as '11Up'. But yes there is no hard and fast ruleApurva
Bahadur

> Surprising as it may sound but there are umpteem no of trains like this
> one.
>
> 2001 up NDLS BHOPAL SHATABDI EXP/ 2002 DN BHOPAL NDLS SHATABDI EXP. WHAT
> I AM TRYING TO CONVEY IS IF BHOPAL IS THE MAIN DEPARTURE STN THEN IT
> SHOULD BE 2001 DN FROM BHOPAL AND VICE VERSA, SIMILAR TO THE ONE WE ARE
> USED TO IN MUMBAI.
>
> THEN AGAIN ON MY RECENT VISIT TO MADRAS I WENT BY 1063 DN CHENNAI EXPRESS
> AND WHEN I WAS RETURNING THE NO OF THE TRAIN MENTIONED AT MADRAS WAS 1064
> DN. DOES THIS MEAN THAT ALL TRAINS LEAVING MUMBAI ARE UP TRAINS ON ARRIVAL
> STATIONS AND ALL TRAINS COMING FROM OTHER CITIES ARE DN TRAINS TILL THEY
> REACH MUMBAI ARE DN AT ALL INTERMEDIATE STATIONS AND AT MUMBAI ARE
> ANNOUNCED AS UP TRAINS.\
>
> I FIND THIS VERY CONFUSING, COULD ANYONE FROM OUR GROUP EXPLAIN THE LOGIC
> BEHIND THIS SYSTEM ?
>
> SINCE I WAS VERY YOUNG IN THE STEAM AGE COULD ANYONE TELL WHAT WERE THE
> DIFFERENT STEAM BEAUTIES ON BROAD GUAGE AND METER GUAGE. ALSO WHICH STEAM
> ENGINES WERE SUPPOSED TO BE HIGHSPEED AND ON WHAT TRAINS WERE THEY
> ATTACHED. I REMEMBER THAT WHEN I WAS SMALL I TRAVELLED BY FRONTIER TO
> DELHI AND IT WENT AT A VERY GOOD SPEED.
>
> ALSO COULD SOMEONE TELL ME HOW MANY STNS DOES DELHI HAVE. I KNOW OLD
> DELHI, NEW DELHI AND NIZAMMUDIN. OLD DELHI HAD TWO GUAGES MG GOING TO
> JAIPUR AND AHMEDABAD AND ONE GOING TO N ORTH.
>
> DO ALL TRAINS GOING TO NORTH FROM MUMBAI LIKE FRONTIER, PASCHIM, JAMMU
> TAWI ETC TOUCH NDL AND OLD DELHI ? OR IS THERE ANY WAY THEY AVOID OLD
> DELHI. WHAT CONFUSES ME IS THAT WHILST GOING TO KALKA THE SHATABDI
> STARTED IN A DIRECTION TOWARDS MUMBAI AND THEN PASSED THRU STNS LIKE SADAR
> BAZAR, SABZI MANDI ETC. BUT THE KALKA MAIL DOES NOT TOUCH NDLS AT ALL AND
> GOES STRAIGHT TO DELHI ? HOW IS THIS P OSSIBLE ? CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN
> PLS!
> AND WHAT ROUTE DOES IT TAKE TO KALKA ?
>
> ALSO WHAT IS THE GRAND CHORD ROUTE ? DOES CAL RAJDHANI FOLLOW THIS ROUTE
> ALSO?
> THE MUMBAI JAMMUTAWI GOES TO AMBALA VIA A DIFFERENT ROUTE PASSING THRU
> NDLS DEL AND DOWN FURTHER SO IS THE SHALIMAR EXPRESS? THEN HOW DO THEY
> REACH AMBALA ?
> SOMEONE IN THE GROUP, PLS EXPLAIN TO ME THIS AS INDIAN RLY IS TRULY GREAT
> AND VAST TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT IT.
>
> P.P.SAKLATWALLA
> 4226/4232/4237

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: your mail

Date: 28 Apr 1998 22:56:00 -0500


One always wonders about these dooms day scenario
Thanks for your reply !
Apurva Bahadur

PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Hi!
> Another interseting piece of information I thought I might share with you
> with regards to the DC-AC changeover North of Virar!
> Well this apparently has happened only once till date and cause a lot of
> problems. It happened way back in the early 80's. To safely pass the DC-AC
> changeover without stalling the train has to pick up a fair bit of speed,
> so as to get past the neutral/dead zone! Well what happened was that a
> morning passenger train heading past Virar on a routine run, had a chain
> pulling and the train came to a dead halt in the dead/neutral section!!
> Well the loco had neither DC or AC catenary supply above it, but dead
> wires! The train was stranded for qute a bit till a WDS4 shunting power
> was caled in from the Bombay area to pul out the train to AC traction
> where it could regain power!!! The whole incident delayed traffic on the
> line by over 2 hours!! Intersting isnt it!
> Reagrds,
> Bharat Vohra

From: dheeraj <dheeraj@iitk.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 23:22:00 -0500


> ALSO COULD SOMEONE TELL ME HOW MANY STNS DOES DELHI HAVE. I KNOW OLD
> DELHI, NEW DELHI AND NIZAMMUDIN. OLD DELHI HAD TWO GUAGES MG GOING TO
> JAIPUR AND AHMEDABAD AND ONE GOING TO N ORTH.

Delhi area has lots of stations, of course, and many of them suburban.
The three most important stations you have already listed. (Important
from the perspective of most trains starting from these places.)
In addition, there is Delhi Sarai Rohilla. That is the MG endpoint
now. There is no MG track to Delhi Junction (commonly known as Old
Delhi) anymore, nor to Delhi Sadar. The other station where several
trains stop is Delhi Cantt. The Palace on Wheels also start from
here. Shakurbasti is a stop for couple of express trains. The same,
I think holds for Azadpur, and perhaps some other stations as well.

A rough layout of important stations is:


To Ghaziabad
^
|
| Shahadara To Ghaziabad
| \
| |
DLI |
||| |
/||\ Sadar NDLS / \ HZN
Sabzimandi / /| -------------------------------------------> To Faridabad
/ / |/ A B C /
/ / | /
/ /| DEE /
/ / \*_ \ /
/ | __\_\________________________________/ Circular Rly or
/ | / X \ Y Z Delhi Avoiding Line
/ |/ \
Azadpur/ | \
/ Shakurbasti \
/ | \
To Sonipat | \ Cantt
| \
To Rohtak \ To Gurgaon


DLI is Delhi Juncion
NDLS is New Delhi
HZN is Hazrat Nizamuddin
DEE is Delhi Sarai Rohilla.

'*' is Dayabasti
X is Patel Nagar
Y is Narayana
Z is Brar Square
A is Shivaji Bridge
B is Minto Bridge
C is Pragati Maidan

DEE to Cantt, Guragon, Rewari line is both MG and BG
Rest everything is BG

The station beyond HZN towards Faridabad are: Okhla (just after
the joining of Delhi Avoiding Line, and then Tughlakabad.
>From NDLS to HZN are: Shivaji Bridge, Tilak Bridge, and Pragati
Maidan. Pragati Maidan is just where the line bifurcates to
Ghaziabad and goes over the new Yamuna Bridge.
Just north of Delhi Junction is Old Yamuna Bridge.
After the new Yamuna Bridge is Anand Vihar (?) and then Sahibababad.

Near DLI is total jungle. Tracks everywhere. There is
a line to Azadpur via Old Sabzimandi. There is a track towards
Shakurbasti via Dayabasti. There is a track to DEE.
Another pair to NDLS via Sadar. And finally a pair to Ghaziabad
via Shahadara.

On the circular railway, the few stations I remember are:
Lajpat Nagar, Chanakyapuri, Brar Square, Narayana, Patel Nagar,
Dayabasti (very close to DEE), Sadar Bazar, NDLS,
Shivaji Bridge, Tilak Bridge, and HZN.


> DO ALL TRAINS GOING TO NORTH FROM MUMBAI LIKE FRONTIER, PASCHIM, JAMMU
> TAWI ETC TOUCH NDL AND OLD DELHI? OR IS THERE ANY WAY THEY AVOID OLD
> DELHI. WHAT CONFUSES ME IS THAT WHILST GOING TO KALKA THE SHATABDI
> STARTED IN A DIRECTION TOWARDS MUMBAI AND THEN PASSED THRU STNS LIKE SADAR
> BAZAR, SABZI MANDI ETC. BUT THE KALKA MAIL DOES NOT TOUCH NDLS AT ALL AND
> GOES STRAIGHT TO DELHI ? HOW IS THIS P OSSIBLE ? CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN
> PLS!
> AND WHAT ROUTE DOES IT TAKE TO KALKA ?

Now, coming to your questions.

Trains going to North can take three different tracks from Delhi.
One is go to Ghaziabad, and then turn towards north from there.
The second is to go via Sonepat/Panipat/Ambala, etc.
The third is Rohtak/Jakhal, etc.

So to go North, one can avoid Old Delhi. From NDLS you go either
route 2 or route 3, or indeed it is possible to go back towards
south, and take new yamuna bridge to go to Ghaziabad and then
route 1. (Though I don't think the last option is really
taken.) It is also possible to avoid New Delhi by going from
HZN to new yamuna bridge, but I don't think any passenger
train takes that bridge from HZN.

Kalka Shatabdi goes from NDLS via Sadar, Old Sabzi Mandi, Azadpur,
Sonepat, Panipat, Ambala, etc. Kalka Express comes from
Ghaziabad via Old Yamuna Bridge, thus avoiding New Delhi.

I hope it helps.

-dheeraj

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 23:32:00 -0500


dheeraj@iitk.email wrote:

> > ALSO COULD SOMEONE TELL ME HOW MANY STNS DOES DELHI HAVE. I KNOW OLD
> > DELHI, NEW DELHI AND NIZAMMUDIN. OLD DELHI HAD TWO GUAGES MG GOING TO
> > JAIPUR AND AHMEDABAD AND ONE GOING TO N ORTH.
>
> Delhi area has lots of stations, of course, and many of them suburban.
> The three most important stations you have already listed. (Important
> from the perspective of most trains starting from these places.)
> In addition, there is Delhi Sarai Rohilla. That is the MG endpoint
> now. There is no MG track to Delhi Junction (commonly known as Old
> Delhi) anymore, nor to Delhi Sadar. The other station where several
> trains stop is Delhi Cantt. The Palace on Wheels also start from
> here. Shakurbasti is a stop for couple of express trains. The same,
> I think holds for Azadpur, and perhaps some other stations as well.
>
> A rough layout of important stations is:
>
> To Ghaziabad
> ^
> |
> | Shahadara To Ghaziabad
> | \
> | |
> DLI |
> ||| |
> /||\ Sadar NDLS / \ HZN
> Sabzimandi / /| -------------------------------------------> To Faridabad
> / / |/ A B C /
> / / | /
> / /| DEE /
> / / \*_ \ /
> / | __\_\________________________________/ Circular Rly or
> / | / X \ Y Z Delhi Avoiding Line
> / |/ \
> Azadpur/ | \
> / Shakurbasti \
> / | \
> To Sonipat | \ Cantt
> | \
> To Rohtak \ To Gurgaon
>
> DLI is Delhi Juncion
> NDLS is New Delhi
> HZN is Hazrat Nizamuddin
> DEE is Delhi Sarai Rohilla.
>

Great Map !
The station code for Nizamuddin is 'NZM' not 'HZN'Apurva Bahadur

> '*' is Dayabasti
> X is Patel Nagar
> Y is Narayana
> Z is Brar Square
> A is Shivaji Bridge
> B is Minto Bridge
> C is Pragati Maidan
>
> DEE to Cantt, Guragon, Rewari line is both MG and BG
> Rest everything is BG
>
> The station beyond HZN towards Faridabad are: Okhla (just after
> the joining of Delhi Avoiding Line, and then Tughlakabad.
> >From NDLS to HZN are: Shivaji Bridge, Tilak Bridge, and Pragati
> Maidan. Pragati Maidan is just where the line bifurcates to
> Ghaziabad and goes over the new Yamuna Bridge.
> Just north of Delhi Junction is Old Yamuna Bridge.
> After the new Yamuna Bridge is Anand Vihar (?) and then Sahibababad.
>
> Near DLI is total jungle. Tracks everywhere. There is
> a line to Azadpur via Old Sabzimandi. There is a track towards
> Shakurbasti via Dayabasti. There is a track to DEE.
> Another pair to NDLS via Sadar. And finally a pair to Ghaziabad
> via Shahadara.
>
> On the circular railway, the few stations I remember are:
> Lajpat Nagar, Chanakyapuri, Brar Square, Narayana, Patel Nagar,
> Dayabasti (very close to DEE), Sadar Bazar, NDLS,
> Shivaji Bridge, Tilak Bridge, and HZN.
>
> > DO ALL TRAINS GOING TO NORTH FROM MUMBAI LIKE FRONTIER, PASCHIM, JAMMU
> > TAWI ETC TOUCH NDL AND OLD DELHI? OR IS THERE ANY WAY THEY AVOID OLD
> > DELHI. WHAT CONFUSES ME IS THAT WHILST GOING TO KALKA THE SHATABDI
> > STARTED IN A DIRECTION TOWARDS MUMBAI AND THEN PASSED THRU STNS LIKE SADAR
> > BAZAR, SABZI MANDI ETC. BUT THE KALKA MAIL DOES NOT TOUCH NDLS AT ALL AND
> > GOES STRAIGHT TO DELHI ? HOW IS THIS P OSSIBLE ? CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN
> > PLS!
> > AND WHAT ROUTE DOES IT TAKE TO KALKA ?
>
> Now, coming to your questions.
>
> Trains going to North can take three different tracks from Delhi.
> One is go to Ghaziabad, and then turn towards north from there.
> The second is to go via Sonepat/Panipat/Ambala, etc.
> The third is Rohtak/Jakhal, etc.
>
> So to go North, one can avoid Old Delhi. From NDLS you go either
> route 2 or route 3, or indeed it is possible to go back towards
> south, and take new yamuna bridge to go to Ghaziabad and then
> route 1. (Though I don't think the last option is really
> taken.) It is also possible to avoid New Delhi by going from
> HZN to new yamuna bridge, but I don't think any passenger
> train takes that bridge from HZN.
>
> Kalka Shatabdi goes from NDLS via Sadar, Old Sabzi Mandi, Azadpur,
> Sonepat, Panipat, Ambala, etc. Kalka Express comes from
> Ghaziabad via Old Yamuna Bridge, thus avoiding New Delhi.
>
> I hope it helps.
>
> -dheeraj

From: sank <sank@telco.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:01:00 -0500


>....... Apart from WR they can be founf working on the harbour line of
> CR in Bombay.......

I think WCAM3s are now working into Pune on CR.

--
Jayant S : IDStudio : TTIL : ERC : TELCO
Pimpri : Pune : 411 018 : INDIA
tel - 91(212)774261 exn 2534
--

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:19:00 -0500


Thanks for your reply.
Apurva Bahadur

PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Hi Apurva!
> Just a few answers to your WCAM querries-
> 1) The WCAM class of locos on WR have never operated north of baroda on
> the mainline and are restriceted to BCT-BRC-ADI section, the last being
> Ahmedabad. Apart from WR they can be founf working on the harbour line of
> CR in Bombay into the dockyard railway changeocver point a Wadala Road.
> WCAM1/2 double header frieghts are a common sight on the Wadala road-Kings
> Circle-Mahim-Bandra run!! They can also be seen on the Vasai-Diva-Kalyan
> section which is the furthest point they operate out of WR actually!
> 2) All the WCAM 1 's and 2's are shedded at Valsad shed in Gujarat. There
> are 52 WCAM1 and 20 WCAM2 based at the shed! Numbers are from 21800-52,
> which actually makes it 53 WCAM1 and 21862-82 WCAM3
> 3) The WCAM1's are about 2600 HP whereas WCAM3 are about 3500HP, WCAM3 are
> 5000 HO being the most powerful of the class!
> Regards,
> Bharat Vohra

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:21:00 -0500


Good stuff !, very thought provoking, will explain quite a lot !
Apurva Bahadur

PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Regarding the Down and UP confusion.....
> Well the railway reasoning for the numbers and directions is as follows-
> 0*** is for Konkan Railway
> 1*** is for CR
> 3*** is for ER
> 4*** is for NR
> 5*** is shared by NER and NFR
> 6*** is for SR
> 7*** is for SCR
> 8*** is for SER
> 9*** id for WR
> 20** is for Shatabdis on all railways!
> 21** is for Superfasts on CR
> 23** is for s/f on ER
> 24** is for s/f on NR
> 25** is for s/f on NER and NFR
> 26** is for S/f on SR
> 27** is for s/f on SCR
> 28** is for s/f on SER
> 29** is for S/f on WR!
>
> As for the down and up stuff-
> Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarter (ie homing
> railway) or from its Divisional headquater, whichever is closer.
> Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarter or its divisional
> hq, whichever is closer. Eg, 2903 DN Frontier mail id down travelling away
> from its HQ, ie Bombay and from the dvision that homes it, ie Bombay div
> and similarly 2904 up refers to it travelling back towrds Bombay, its HQ
> and division.
> As for the Shatabdis, ther can be no confusion...the odd endiong nymber
> has to be for Down run and even ending number for the up run.
> This is simple cause 7 Shatabdis are run from Delhi, NR....2 form Bombay,
> one from WR and one from CR, 2 from Madras, SR and 2 from Howrah, ER.
> All these trains were numbered as and when they came out in a logical
> order..eg. New Delhi -Bhopal Shatabdi was the first and was numbered 2001
> DN (away form Delhi) and 2002 up (towards Delhi)
> The Ahmedabad Shatabdi was the 5th Shatabdi introduced in the country and
> was numbered 2010 DN, away form Bombay and 2011 UP towards Bombay!
> I do hope that sorts out some of the confusion about the numbering and
> UP/Down system.
> Regards,
> Bharat Vohra

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:23:00 -0500


WCAM3 are powering almost all the important (read air braked ?) mail
expresses into Pune. WCAM1 & 2 from WR are seen on the CR system when they
get goods trains to the Wadi Bunder or at Diva Jn for Konkan Railway

Apurva Bahadur

sank@telco.email wrote:

> >....... Apart from WR they can be founf working on the harbour line of
> > CR in Bombay.......
>
> I think WCAM3s are now working into Pune on CR.
>
> --
> Jayant S : IDStudio : TTIL : ERC : TELCO
> Pimpri : Pune : 411 018 : INDIA
> tel - 91(212)774261 exn 2534
> --

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 29 Apr 1998 00:39:00 -0500


PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Hi Apurva!
> Just a few answers to your WCAM querries-
> 1) The WCAM class of locos on WR have never operated north of baroda on
> the mainline and are restriceted to BCT-BRC-ADI section, the last being
> Ahmedabad. Apart from WR they can be founf working on the harbour line of
> CR in Bombay into the dockyard railway changeocver point a Wadala Road.
> WCAM1/2 double header frieghts are a common sight on the Wadala road-Kings
> Circle-Mahim-Bandra run!!

Can the WCAM class be run in multiple unit ?The DC locos shunt with either
panto up, while the AC locos shunt STRICTLY with the trailing panto. Any
explanations ?
Apurva Bahadur

> They can also be seen on the Vasai-Diva-Kalyan
> section which is the furthest point they operate out of WR actually!
> 2) All the WCAM 1 's and 2's are shedded at Valsad shed in Gujarat. There
> are 52 WCAM1 and 20 WCAM2 based at the shed! Numbers are from 21800-52,
> which actually makes it 53 WCAM1 and 21862-82 WCAM3
> 3) The WCAM1's are about 2600 HP whereas WCAM3 are about 3500HP, WCAM3 are
> 5000 HO being the most powerful of the class!
> Regards,
> Bharat Vohra

From: PROTIP.DASGUPTA <protip@giasbmc.email

Subject: Re: your mail

Date: 28 Apr 1998 10:12:00 -0500


Hi!
Another interseting piece of information I thought I might share with you
with regards to the DC-AC changeover North of Virar!
Well this apparently has happened only once till date and cause a lot of
problems. It happened way back in the early 80's. To safely pass the DC-AC
changeover without stalling the train has to pick up a fair bit of speed,
so as to get past the neutral/dead zone! Well what happened was that a
morning passenger train heading past Virar on a routine run, had a chain
pulling and the train came to a dead halt in the dead/neutral section!!
Well the loco had neither DC or AC catenary supply above it, but dead
wires! The train was stranded for qute a bit till a WDS4 shunting power
was caled in from the Bombay area to pul out the train to AC traction
where it could regain power!!! The whole incident delayed traffic on the
line by over 2 hours!! Intersting isnt it!
Reagrds,
Bharat Vohra

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 29 Apr 1998 09:25:00 -0500


PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Hi Apurva
> Yes the WCAM class locos can most definetely run in multiple units...this
> is more common on WCAM3 and often on WCAM2 to! I have also seen
> WCAM1+WCAM2 on a frighter headiong out of Bandra Marshalling yard for the
> docks. Double headers are needed there cause of the Rail overbridge
> between Kings Circle and Wadala Junction, It is avery steep incline and
> loaded frights need to be doubleheaded!
>
> The AC locos, apart from doing so while shunting or travelling light
> always travel with the trailing panto up due to safety and back up
> reasons! Well since both pantos are fit to run on 25KV AC, unlike DC/AC
> locos where each is specialised to run on one kind of traction....the AC
> locos keep the trailing panto up in case of damage to any panto. If the
> trailing panto gets damaged or breaks of during a run, the front panto is
> always there as backup, whereas if the front panto is raised and gets
> damaged then it can also effect the trailing panto while on the run!
> Thats is why as an aspect of safety and backup the trailing panto is kept
> up!

They must have some very nasty experiences, so even shunting at low speed
from one siding to another means, stopping, lowering the pento, raising the
other one and then reversing direction of travel. DC locos (WCM & WCG class)
are quite shameless - they leave shed with the trailing panto (for the
majority of travel) firmly in place ! That is the unusual observation.Apurva
Bahadur

> Regards
> Bharat Vohra

From: PROTIP.DASGUPTA <protip@giasbmc.email

Subject: Re:

Date: 28 Apr 1998 12:59:00 -0500


Hi Apurva!
Just a few answers to your WCAM querries-
1) The WCAM class of locos on WR have never operated north of baroda on
the mainline and are restriceted to BCT-BRC-ADI section, the last being
Ahmedabad. Apart from WR they can be founf working on the harbour line of
CR in Bombay into the dockyard railway changeocver point a Wadala Road.
WCAM1/2 double header frieghts are a common sight on the Wadala road-Kings
Circle-Mahim-Bandra run!! They can also be seen on the Vasai-Diva-Kalyan
section which is the furthest point they operate out of WR actually!
2) All the WCAM 1 's and 2's are shedded at Valsad shed in Gujarat. There
are 52 WCAM1 and 20 WCAM2 based at the shed! Numbers are from 21800-52,
which actually makes it 53 WCAM1 and 21862-82 WCAM3
3) The WCAM1's are about 2600 HP whereas WCAM3 are about 3500HP, WCAM3 are
5000 HO being the most powerful of the class!
Regards,
Bharat Vohra

From: PROTIP.DASGUPTA <protip@giasbmc.email

Subject: Re: Down and up confusion !

Date: 28 Apr 1998 13:12:00 -0500


Regarding the Down and UP confusion.....
Well the railway reasoning for the numbers and directions is as follows-
0*** is for Konkan Railway
1*** is for CR
3*** is for ER
4*** is for NR
5*** is shared by NER and NFR
6*** is for SR
7*** is for SCR
8*** is for SER
9*** id for WR
20** is for Shatabdis on all railways!
21** is for Superfasts on CR
23** is for s/f on ER
24** is for s/f on NR
25** is for s/f on NER and NFR
26** is for S/f on SR
27** is for s/f on SCR
28** is for s/f on SER
29** is for S/f on WR!

As for the down and up stuff-
Down refers to a train travelling away from its headquarter (ie homing
railway) or from its Divisional headquater, whichever is closer.
Up refers to a train travelling towards its headquarter or its divisional
hq, whichever is closer. Eg, 2903 DN Frontier mail id down travelling away
from its HQ, ie Bombay and from the dvision that homes it, ie Bombay div
and similarly 2904 up refers to it travelling back towrds Bombay, its HQ
and division.
As for the Shatabdis, ther can be no confusion...the odd endiong nymber
has to be for Down run and even ending number for the up run.
This is simple cause 7 Shatabdis are run from Delhi, NR....2 form Bombay,
one from WR and one from CR, 2 from Madras, SR and 2 from Howrah, ER.
All these trains were numbered as and when they came out in a logical
order..eg. New Delhi -Bhopal Shatabdi was the first and was numbered 2001
DN (away form Delhi) and 2002 up (towards Delhi)
The Ahmedabad Shatabdi was the 5th Shatabdi introduced in the country and
was numbered 2010 DN, away form Bombay and 2011 UP towards Bombay!
I do hope that sorts out some of the confusion about the numbering and
UP/Down system.
Regards,
Bharat Vohra

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: Automatic Brakes

Date: 29 Apr 1998 10:15:00 -0500


With refernce to the posting that a train has stalled in the Virar dead
zone:
In the vaccum braked rakes the brakes would automatically come on if the
vaccum is destroyed by 'A/C' (railway pidgin for alarm chain pulling)
or by a 'parting' (failure of coupling) or by the vaccum hose coming
off. In the newer air braked rakes, if the A/c pulling occurs, an alarm
sounds in the driver's dashboard (atleast in the dual braked WCG2 and
WCM5) and the driver decides when the brakes are to applied and the
train is to be stopped. Same is true in case of the electro pneumatic
EMUs where pulling the chain does not automatically stop the local.
What happens to the air braked rake if the air hose is uncoupled ?

A clear explanation of the working of the Automatic Air brake will be
welcome, Shirish ?

I have personally seen a more colourful driver of the Mumbai division
boosting the exhauster and not allowing the vaccum braked 7307 Dn. Koyna
Exp. to stop due to A/C pulling. He nursed the loco stubbornly and
stopped only on the Shivaji Nagar platform thus defeating the chain
puller's
motive to stop short at Khadki !

Apparently many of the rakes are not fail safe, as illustrated by the
recent accident at Parli Vaijnath where a ballast rake (the oldest -
just about serviceable of the lot ?) parted and rolled back on to the
waiting Manmad Kacheguda Express. As many of the short distance goods
(Lonavala - Pune - Daund) and departmental rakes run without a guards
van (the guard rides in the loco !) any parting will surely result in
rolling back with tragic consequences. Can the mechanical brakes in the
Guard's van stop a moving rake ?
What actually happened when the (newly) air braked Indrayani Exp. rolled
down the ghats without a driver as the loco caught fire and the air
pressure dropped, a few years back ?

Apurva Bahadur

From: Apurva Bahadur <iti@giaspn01.email

Subject: 25 KV electrification of Mumbai area

Date: 29 Apr 1998 10:22:00 -0500


I am trying to list the pro and cons of 25 KV electrification upto
Mumbai CST (VT) and Mumbai Central (BCT - MCT)

It is a task more difficult construction of the Konkan Railway.

Advantages I can list:

* Standardization of equipment. No changing locos at Baroda,
Igatpuri and Pune ( Of course, we at Pune will get 25 KV from
Guntakal side or Manmad- Daund much before Mumbai will !).
* More efficient than DC transmission, thus reducing the amount of
substations.
* Eliminate the shortage of DC locos as theAC locos are in abundance
all over the country.

Problems:

* Mumbai will have to be virtually shut down for a period of atleast
6 months. Although there are AC DC locos , there are no AC -DC EMUs
to allow gradual wiring of the route. There are definately not
enough DMU's to take over the EMUs for the period. Even today,
there is no time available during the day to allow the any serious
planned maintenance of the saturated corridor of CR and WR.
* All the existing DC equipment will have to get scrapped
* The structures such as ROB (road over bridges) and tunnels may have
to modified to cater for extra clearance required for 25 KV (1
meter ?)
* Enormous expenditure required

What is the news on this project available with all you junta and of
electrifications of the Chennai - Mumbai trunk route.

Viraf: How can you rope in the gems of railway informations in Mumbai
like I.S. Anand, Manish Karnik, Jal Bhagwagar and the many others I
apologise for not listing, in this forum ?

Apurva Bahadur

From: VIRAF P.. MULLA <sncf@godrejnet.email

Subject: Re: your mail

Date: 29 Apr 1998 17:05:00 -0500


On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, PROTIP.DASGUPTA wrote:

> Hi!
> Another interseting piece of information I thought I might share with you
> with regards to the DC-AC changeover North of Virar!
> Well this apparently has happened only once till date and cause a lot of
> problems. It happened way back in the early 80's. To safely pass the DC-AC
> changeover without stalling the train has to pick up a fair bit of speed,
> so as to get past the neutral/dead zone! Well what happened was that a
> morning passenger train heading past Virar on a routine run, had a chain
> pulling and the train came to a dead halt in the dead/neutral section!!
> Well the loco had neither DC or AC catenary supply above it, but dead
> wires! The train was stranded for qute a bit till a WDS4 shunting power
> was caled in from the Bombay area to pul out the train to AC traction
> where it could regain power!!! The whole incident delayed traffic on the
> line by over 2 hours!! Intersting isnt it!
> Reagrds,
> Bharat Vohra
>

HI Bharat,

Yes I know of this case very well 'cause my uncle Mr.Soli Bharucha
happened to be the driver of the stranded train.

Regards
==========================
Viraf Mulla
C-20/14, Jeevan Bima Nagar,
Borivali (West)
Mumbai 400103
Tel: +91-22-8954510
E-mail: sncf@godrejnet.email
==========================

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